Teaching Turn Initiation to Upper Int. & Advanced Skiers

[T-Square]

View attachment 74431 These would be good too.

View attachment 74430

I like those. They are $16.95 here: https://iheartsynergee.com/products/coresliders

 

[James]

what's your takeaway from Kate's video?

There's movement of hips in direction of new turn in this. It often leads and the legs come around. Not always level either. Usually not. Lot of these "rules" are violated all the time.
But racers often ski with a lot of initial inclination, non level pelvis, all of which is supposedly bad. So, how to reconcile these concepts?

Just look at the stop screen. Nothing level about that pelvis.

 

[markojp]

Inclinination into angulation is pretty standard stuff.... com'on guys, it's only May.

 

[Mike King]

Hope everyone understands that separation in the pursuit of active rotary (gadgets above) is different than resultant separation caused by angulation which @abcd Contributed.

That's not true of the Kate Howe video I posted.

 

[Mike King]

what's your takeaway from Kate's video?

There's movement of hips in direction of new turn in this. It often leads and the legs come around. Not always level either. Usually not. Lot of these "rules" are violated all the time.
But racers often ski with a lot of initial inclination, non level pelvis, all of which is supposedly bad. So, how to reconcile these concepts?

Just look at the stop screen. Nothing level about that pelvis.

A couple of thoughts about it. First of all, I think Kate's video is useful for showing the difference between separation as an input (e.g. the rotary stuff above) versus as an output. Second, as @markojp stated, it can be a result of when the turn -- in initiation, there is often more inclination that progresses to angulation in the shaping and finish phases of the turn. Third, it is also an issue of the degree of edge angle. Watch the flushes in Mikeala's video -- her pelvis is pretty level. But as she needs big angles, it's pretty impossible to produce them with a level pelvis. Still, she is lifting her inside hip.

At least that's my explanation -- but open to other opinions.

Mike

 

[Mike King]

Inclinination into angulation is pretty standard stuff.... com'on guys, it's only May.

And all of us are feeling the withdrawal from skiing. Some of us have been absent longer than others...

 

[JESinstr]

Hope everyone understands that separation in the pursuit of active rotary (gadgets above) is different than resultant separation caused by angulation which @abcd Contributed.

That's not true of the Kate Howe video I posted.

Mike, Might be an misunderstanding. In you post above you stated:
"First of all, I think Kate's video is useful for showing the difference between separation as an input (e.g. the rotary stuff above) versus as an output". This is where I was coming from albeit using different words.

 

[Mike King]

Mike, Might be an misunderstanding. In you post above you stated:
"First of all, I think Kate's video is useful for showing the difference between separation as an input (e.g. the rotary stuff above) versus as an output". This is where I was coming from albeit using different words.

yep, understood, but just wanted the readers of the thread to realize that Kate's video is not about rotary -- it's about separation that results from pelvic alignment.

 

[James]

Watch the flushes in Mikeala's video -- her pelvis is pretty level. But as she needs big angles, it's pretty impossible to produce them with a level pelvis. Still, she is lifting her inside hip.

Yeah flushes are fall line turns. More similar to comp mogul turns without the 3rd dimension than normal alpine turns. There's no change of direction.

 

[Mike King]

Yeah flushes are fall line turns. More similar to comp mogul turns without the 3rd dimension than normal alpine turns. There's no change of direction.

Well, watch the turns that do have a change of direction but are not as high angle. Hip is relatively level.

 

[François Pugh]

I think I actually can.
How about martial arts ? Instructors can rotate, but still teach same movement patterns and same fundamentals. It's not a way to become a professional MMA fighter, but there is certain level of consistency that allows students to progress from beginner levels without feeling constantly confused.
Or yoga, People learn movement patterns in a group setting with different instructors on Mondays and Wednesdays and yet feel like they are taught the same thing.

The tricky part is re-enforcement of bad habits between the lessons. Unfortunately, in all my time taking group lessons I've never heard a ski instructor say "beware that going on the steeps will wake up your bad habits. I know that steeps are more fun, but try to make sure to spend half of the time enjoying the greens. This is where you can solidify the skills we learned today".


Yes, working with the same instructor during the season and taking camps several times a year now.
I also took a group lessons this season, I was bundled together with 3 students who wanted to ski steep greens and blues. I was told to push with my new outside foot to start the turn and to stand up tall in between the turns. Exactly same things I was taught when I started and that I recently spent 4 years trying to replace with new movement patterns (not very successfully). The other 3 students were very happy with what they have learned and commented how useful the lesson was.

IMHO, based on my experience, I don't think that approach would work well for martial arts. When I was in university, I trained in my style of Karate-Do, Shorinjiryu (the style demonstrated in the Japanese Pavilion at Expo in 1967 ). I have also done a bit of Taoist Tai Chi. We had many students from many different backgrounds, and styles of many different martial arts join us to work out while they were studying at Queen's University in Kingston Ontario. Like skiing there are more similarities than differences at the top levels, but the approach and the road to get there is very different.

BTW, I can tell you my martial art actually works in the real world.

 

[geepers]

BTW, I can tell you my martial art actually works in the real world.

 

[James]

Well, watch the turns that do have a change of direction but are not as high angle. Hip is relatively level.

From 1:10
We calling this level?
In terms of the thread and initiation, it's extension.

 

[Mike King]

From 1:10
We calling this level?
In terms of the thread and initiation, it's extension.

Nope, but try to create that level of edge with a level hip.

 

[James]

Nope, but try to create that level of edge with a level hip.

I would agree, but with these demo team (many countries) instructors, level hips seems to be a focus. Why? What's the goal? Most racers do not free ski like that. And racing like that is mollasses slow
They'd never even place in the top 50 of a Japanese technical competition. Even Hirscher, unless he decided he wanted to train and win it, then all bets are off.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Hirscher would probably do about as well in the artificial environment of Japanese technical competitions as the Japanese typically do in World Cup slalom or GS. Doubt he’d care though

 

[Mike King]

I would agree, but with these demo team (many countries) instructors, level hips seems to be a focus. Why? What's the goal? Most racers do not free ski like that. And racing like that is mollasses slow
They'd never even place in the top 50 of a Japanese technical competition. Even Hirscher, unless he decided he wanted to train and win it, then all bets are off.

Yea, just to play devils advocate, McGlashan and Lorenz were in there, and they did place in the top 50. But somewhat irrelevant. So, the real question is what is the effect of seeking a level hip on ski performance? What I surmise from Kate's video is that it gets you stacked over the outside ski with angulation. So presumably grip.

What say you?

 

[JESinstr]

So, the real question is what is the effect of seeking a level hip on ski performance? What I surmise from Kate's video is that it gets you stacked over the outside ski with angulation. So presumably grip.

What say you?

I say check out the 2 garlands Mikaela does at :15 in. Is that what you are talking about?

 

[James]

Yea, just to play devils advocate, McGlashan and Lorenz were in there, and they did place in the top 50. But somewhat irrelevant. So, the real question is what is the effect of seeking a level hip on ski performance? What I surmise from Kate's video is that it gets you stacked over the outside ski with angulation. So presumably grip.

What say you?

Yes McGlashan and Lorenz basically ski that style which seems to be the goal of many. It's horribly slow for racing though.
Presumably grip, but likely in a shortish round turn of a certain style. So, style really. Like wedel is a style.

It's interesting to see that when Mikaela is practicing precise slow turns getting back on skis, it's the opposite of flexed McGlashan style turns.

 

[markojp]

I think we're getting a bit over the top literal 'hips level' thing. If the inside of the pelvis moves up, there's a bit more room to get the new inside foot under us early in transition, AND gets us on top of the new outside ski. While we're firing up the verbal flame throwers, this is very easy to show and do on snow. Man o' man, if we're picking serious nits now, we'd best warm up the electon microscopes for July and August. No idea what we'll do in Sept/Oct. though.