Teaching Turn Initiation to Upper Int. & Advanced Skiers

[James]

Had a moment so got to it quicker than I thought.

Sorry. I have to totally disagree. Yes. There is a point in the turn where he shortens that inside leg and yes, it even comes off the snow. But watch carefully the initiation of the left turn at 4:12-4:13 and the initiation of the right turn at 4:14-4:15. He clearly starts by extending both legs before he gets to the inside leg shortening.

Edited to add - BTW folks, I'm not saying JF is doing anything "wrong"! I'm simply clarifying my earlier post so we are clear that what he does in this video is not the long-leg/short-leg initiation method I was talking about.

Depends on what you mean by initiation. I’d say his extension is part of his completion of the previous turn. Kind of a reset to neutral. Looks like he intentionally gets long before starting the next turn. The downhill ski is still on edge in this extension.

He initiates the next turn by extending/shortening as he says he’s doing.

 

[Skisailor]

@Skisailor, I suspect the issue is the definition of initiation. To me, initiation starts with edge change. And while he is extending the new outside leg prior to edge change, he is also shortening the new inside leg at edge change.

This goes to your argument that the shortening is due to the slope. If he is shortening the inside leg prior to the fall line, then it can't be due to the slope.

Mike

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Yes. I agree with your definition of initiation. Initiation is the moment we move from the old set of edges into neutral and the split second after, as we change to the new edges. I may have over emphasized the slope aspect - it is important - but I acknowledge he is also actively shortening his inside leg. It's just a timing thing. I can very clearly see that he extends both legs slightly to initiate the edge change, It is only after this extension move that he THEN begins the active shortening of his inside leg. If we could sit in front of the video together, I could show you what I mean.

 

[Mike King]

@Skisailor, it may be true that in some of the turns there is a slight extension of the new inside leg, but that is unimportant. One of the things about MA is that while detail can be important, it is also true that it can sometimes lead you down a rabbit hole that is unimportant. JF is doing a drill to focus on inside leg shortening and outside ski steering. His focus is not on edge change, it is on the active shortening of the inside ski (starting in the initiation phase of the turn) and the steering the outside ski (primarily in the shaping and finish of the turn). And the primary things in these turns are his shortening of the inside leg in the initiation of the turn and the resulting steering of the outside ski.

Be careful about getting too picky in your MA -- it can lead you to focusing on things that really are not important in the larger context of the biomechanics and resulting ski performance. This is a lesson I learned this last year in my level 3 MA prep.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Skisailor, I suspect the issue is the definition of initiation. To me, initiation starts with edge change. And while he is extending the new outside leg prior to edge change, he is also shortening the new inside leg at edge change.

This goes to your argument that the shortening is due to the slope. If he is shortening the inside leg prior to the fall line, then it can't be due to the slope.

Mike

I have a real problem with initiation happening "with edge change." I have a problem with thinking of the new turn starting with edge change too. Yes, upper level skiers often (not always) choose to get onto new (downhill) edges before the fall line. But this is not the case for lower level skiers.

For lower level skiers edge change is often delayed until till the fall line or just after it as the skis turn across the hill. In some turns, the skier keeps the skis pretty much flat as they turn to point down the hill. In these turns with the delay, how can we justify claiming that initiation happens at the fall line, after the skis have been turned to point downhill?

I think of initiation beginning when the old turn is let go of .... with release. Release IS initiation, in my book. Release/initiation is what the skier does to end one turn and start the new turn - both with the same movement. I may be in the minority here.

But then this is just semantics. Does JF extend the new outside leg before he shortens the new inside leg? We don't have to agree on the definition of "initiation" to figure that out. We don't have to listen to his words. Just slow the video down and look.

 

[Mike King]

I have a real problem with initiation happening "with edge change." I have a problem with thinking of the new turn starting with edge change. Yes, upper level skiers often (not always) choose to get onto new (downhill) edges before the fall line. But for lower level skiers edge change is often delayed until till the fall line or just after it. In those turns with the delay, how can we justify claiming that initiation happens at the fall line, after the skis have been turned to point downhill?

I think of initiation beginning when the old turn is let go of .... with release. Release IS initiation, in my book. Release/initiation is what the skier does to end one turn and start the new turn - both with the same movement.

But then this is just semantics. Does JF extend the new outside leg before he shortens the new inside leg? We don't have to agree on the definition of "initiation" to figure that out. We don't have to listen to his words. Just slow the video down and look.

The convention for PSIA movement analysis uses three phases of the turn: Initiation, Shaping, and Finish. Initiation begins with edge change.

These are arbitrary distinctions, and one could easily come up with other definitions. Your comment about all sorts of other things taking place is absolutely true. In fact, I believe that it is better to focus on the transition, which might be from apex to apex, or there about.

Mike

 

[Steve]

Well, as far as definition - initiate has a very clear and simple definition. Start or begin.

So if we want to use the English language it means the start or beginning of a turn.

So to me the edge change happens because of some movement that creates it. Something that begins the process of starting the new turn, something that creates the edge change. So Mike you may be correct that PSIA says a turn starts at edge change, but that's a misuse of the word initiation, and honestly of the word start.

The turn starts with the first movement that creates the edge change. Whether that's a tipping of the feet, an extension or a retraction, that to me is the initiation of a turn.

I'm in a turn. I want to start a new turn, what do I do? The edge change is the result of what I do.

Perhaps the "transition" is the edge change, but the initiation is what begins the process of transition.

 

[Mike King]

Well, as far as definition - initiate has a very clear and simple definition. Start or begin.

So if we want to use the English language it means the start or beginning of a turn.

So to me the edge change happens because of some movement that creates it. Something that begins the process of starting the new turn, something that creates the edge change. So Mike you may be correct that PSIA says a turn starts at edge change, but that's a misues of the word initiation, and honestly of the word start.

The turn starts with the first movement that creates the edge change. Whether that's a tipping of the feet, an extension or a retraction, that to me is the initiation of a turn.

I'm in a turn. I want to start a new turn, what do I do? The edge change is the result of what I do.

Well, to be argumentative, (not that it matters), using your definition -- begin -- the change in direction begins with edge change. So there's a method to the PSIA (and I believe USCC) definition of initiation beginning with edge change.

The bigger point is that the most important part of skiing is what happens through edge change, which is why our focus the past few years in Aspen has been on the transition.

Still, if you want to pass an MA exam, at least in PSIA-RM, you best be able to describe ski performance and relate it to body performance in the three phases of the turn.

Mike

 

[Steve]

Well, to be argumentative, (not that it matters), using your definition -- begin -- the change in direction begins with edge change.
Mike

Well to continue the (friendly and respectful) argument. What causes the edges to change? The skier has to do something don't they? It doesn't happen automagically. And whatever that movement is, is that therefore in PSIA MA part of the completion phase?

That to me doesn't make sense. If I want to start something, I do something. Once I do something the change begins, the transition to the new turn begins. The edges flatten, the release occurs. But before that, before the change in direction occurs I have to do something. Isn't that the start of the turn - the initiation of the sequence of movements?

 

[Mike King]

Well to continue the (friendly and respectful) argument. What causes the edges to change? The skier has to do something don't they? It doesn't happen automagically. And whatever that movement is, is that therefore in PSIA MA part of the completion phase?

That to me doesn't make sense. If I want to start something, I do something. Once I do something the change begins, the transition to the new turn begins. The edges flatten, the release occurs. But before that, before the change in direction occurs I have to do something. Isn't that the start of the turn - the initiation of the sequence of movements?

In high end skiing, you should always be moving. And the current state is always a result of something that happened in the last state. So, Shaping is an outcome of Initiation. Initiation is an outcome of Finish, Finish is an outcome of Shaping. It's a circle, that's (almost) never ending.

Mike

 

[Steve]

Well maybe so, but in that case the word initiate is just plain wrong. Better to use transition as the name of that phase.

 

[Steve]

I will say that pedagogy has never been a strong part of PSIA.

What does CSIA name the phases of a turn? They have a much more pedagogical approach.

 

[Steve]

Phase 1 - Diminish edge angle
Phase 2 - Establish platform
Phase 3 - Loading and Deflection

 

[Steve]

Transition / Initiation
Shaping
Finish / Transition

Found this on a PSIA-RM resource. So they put Initiation after transition. So their first phase is CSIA's second phase, and the act of releasing the edges doesn't really have a movement phase associated with it. It's an amorphous combination of both phases.

 

[Steve]

So for my fifth post in a row, to bring this back to the thread topic, how do you teach initiation?

Teach the student to do something. "Change edges." How? What do you do? How do you start a turn to initiate (sic) it?

 

[Chris V.]

So for my fifth post in a row, to bring this back to the thread topic, how do you teach initiation?

Teach the student to do something. "Change edges." How? What do you do? How do you start a turn to initiate (sic) it?

Independent of any flexion-extension preference:

1. Release! No half measures here.

2. As one starts to improve, carry through with the release movements directly into movements to create new edge angles early in the new turn. A continuation of the same movements. No dynamic to static (flat skis) to dynamic. Just dynamic and smooth throughout.

3. Learn to rely primarily on ski performance to create the new turn, as opposed to pivoting the skis.

 

[Steve]

I like the CSIA phases. Paraphrasing them in my words.

Release (Diminish edge angle)
Engage (Establish platform)
Shape (Loading and Deflection)

All are movements and Phase 1 initiates a turn. As @LiquidFeet has said, PSIA doesn't discuss how to transition from turn to turn, it's not a phase.

 

[Mike King]

From the USSA Level 100 Manual:

PHASES OF THE TURN​

A traditional way to view the ski turn is by phases. In the past the turn was typically divided into three phases; "initiation", "turn", and "completion", or some similar vernacular. While this has some value, the demands of modern ski racing requires us to take another look at this phase naming strategy.​

Viewing the turn as having a completion phase implies that something is completed. A component of modern ski racing is the diminishing time between turns. Today, turns essentially dissolve into one another. This makes the "completion" phase obsolete. This evolution has lead to the parody of referring to this transition between turns as the "finishiation" of the turn, comically emphasizing the overlap between the finish and initiation phases.​

Sometimes we hear coaches say "he didn't finish or complete his turn". While the turn completion may be location where the athlete is suffering, this is not necessarily where the problem is located. This sort of comment is most likely referring to the shape of the turn. Specifically a turn which is not brought enough across the hill. This is not a turn completion problem but a problem within the turn itself. The athlete either needed more direction at the top of the turn or more shaping through edge and/or pressure during the turn.​

From the CSIA Skiing and Teaching Methods Manual:

TURN PHASES​

Turn Phases are a way of linking a skier’s movement patterns with specific parts of the turn. They provide a template for skill assessment and development by prioritizing and sequencing skills.

Turn Phases as a working tool

Although sequenced from 1 to 3 for reference, turn phases can be approached in any way that is effective for results. For example, working the timing of edging in phase 3 could be a way of developing stance in phase 1. While turn phases provide an excellent way to break down turns, skill development should always lead to linked, fluid skiing.

Phase 1: Completion to “neutral”

The skier must be balanced to manage pressure and forces generated by the turn.

The COM is released from its arc, diminishing the line of inclination. This takes the skier to flat ski(s) between turns, and lets the COM travel freely down the hill and towards the inside of the next turn.

The COM and the BOS come out of the turn together, with the skier in a balanced, neutral stance. As the skis flatten, they are released from their arc, diminishing the steering angle.

Phase 2: “neutral” to fall-line

A new turning platform is established. In parallel turns, the skier should feel the side cut of both skis.

COM maintains its momentum, moving forward and inside the arc.

The skier stays centred in anticipation of the loading that will occur later in the turn. Steering with the lower body creates a natural upper and lower body separation.

Phase 3: Fall-line to completion

The skier progressively increases edge angles through angulation. As the turn radius tightens, steering angle increases.

To manage the external forces, parallel skis as well as legs and upper body stability are crucial.

The steering and loading is timed for direction change and/or speed control and helps to create linking back into phase 1.

Adjusting Phases to different types of skiing

Turn phases apply to wedge turns also:

With equal weight on both skis, a beginner will glide between turns.

The turning platform is established as the skier creates balance over the outside ski

through separation and subtle angulation.

Edge increase is subtle, but grip with the outside ski creates deflection.

In steeps and bumps the timing of the phases change:

The edge release happens quickly and is often initiated with a hop or release of pressure.

Upper/lower body separation results from an active pivoting of the legs beneath the skier.

Steering is active, and helped by terrain contours. Edging later in the turn controls speed

​

There's no perfect system. But the bigger issue, as both of the above mention, is that what happens in this phase of the turn is related to what happened earlier.

As to PSIA not prescribing how to release a ski, that subject has been beat to death multiple times on this site and others prior to its existence. There's many different ways to ski and achieve the desired ski performance. It depends on equipment, terrain, conditions, and intent. And even then there's many different ways to skin a cat. Part of the strength of PSIA is that it endorses a guest centered approach that attempts to deliver what the guest wants. Part of the weakness of PSIA is that it does not have a prescribed methodology.

Mike

 

[Steve]

Good post Mike. Your last couple of sentences reminds me of Steve Job's approach. He didn't do what his customers wanted him to do. He didn't do market research and ask them what they wanted. His point was if he did that, they'd just ask for what they already knew, but a little better. He wanted to change things, to improve things, which often required forcing the future on his customers. For example, do away with serial ports so people had to use USB (PC's had both, but no one used the USB port because they were used to serial ports.)

A purely guest centered approach leaves the students without a compass. If I want to learn something I want the teacher to know how to do it and how to teach it. Of course with flexibility mixed in, and customized to each student for sure - but some developmental steps to move along, not stepping stones to jump to in a constantly changing order.

The way things are now, a student comes out of a lesson often thinking, "nice, that was great." Only to later realize that their skiing wasn't really moving along a continuum of improvement, particularly when they take the next lesson.

Yes there is more than one way to initiate a turn, I'm the first one to say that there isn't one way to get to heaven.

But it's gone too far, there's too much flavor of the day. American's are at a huge disadvantage compared to countries that have a more systemized way of teaching skiing.

Better to take race training, even if you don't want to race. They develop skills in their students, we tend to make it up as we go along, pulling out something from our bag of tricks, rather than developing skills in a logical fashion.

 

[JESinstr]

To draw an analogy to shifting a manual transmission from 1st gear to 2nd...

I can totally understand how some would say that leaving 1st gear for 2nd is the initiation of the process of going to 2nd gear.

On the other hand there is something called neutral that you have to pass through in order to reach 2nd gear. In neutral there is no engagement of the drivetrain. If you don't make it into 2nd gear, the car will eventually stop. Likewise in skiing, when you consciously release your edges from the previous turn you pass into neutral. Only if you intentionally engage your new edges will you begin the new turn. If not, you will end up headed straight down the hill. In addition and to make matters worse, unlike a car, skis have a propensity to slip out of gear but that's a discussion for another thread.

After release from 1st gear - old edge engagement - a novice may linger in neutral before moving the shift lever into the next gear - new edge engagement. An expert will blow right through neutral as if it wasn't there.

 

[Steve]

Excellent analogy @JESinstr. You changed my thinking with it. Initiation of the new turn starts after edge neutral. The movement to release is not necessarily initiating a new turn, it's just ending the old one.

My profession deals with words and their meaning and usage. I was quite insistent in my posts on the meaning of initiation as it refers to the transition. I was wrong.



edit: looks like this is my 500th post. Did it take me this long to say "I was wrong?" (I hope not.)