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Teaching Turn Initiation to Upper Int. & Advanced Skiers

rocdoc

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In New England, on low pitch terrain, at very slow speeds, in an adult group lesson of 1.5 hours, it's very difficult to get a group of grown-ups able to make parallel turns using flex-to-release initiation. There are several ways to get that turn to work, but adult beginners are unfamiliar with all of those movements and they don't happen in the group setting easily. The number of falls increases the group's anxiety. Anxiety leads to rigid bodies, and rigid bodies make for more falls. Some students will get a flexion turn to happen, but it's often a barely-there turn and offers no way for the skier to control its radius easily in that short lesson, thus no user-applied speed control. You can tell I've tried.

Turning in a narrow wedge slows the students down, which makes them happy, and an extend to release or one of its cousins paired with rotation of the skis for turn shape control and speed control is much easier to teach and learn in our New England short lessons.

Instructors who teach out west in day-long lessons will have a different experience.

On the other hand, I've taught 3 and 4 year olds (in private lessons) to make parallel turns on day one in a 1 hour lesson. Actually, they get it in the first 45 minutes, before they wear out.

This is an awesome explanation. Makes perfect sense. It's a matter of what is practically achievable in a naturalistic setting, as opposed to the ideal environment. Thanks
 

Chris V.

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These threads are so interesting for a nerdy relative newb like me. I have a general question/comment for the more knowledgeable though. Over the years of taking lessons, I have experienced a range of instruction, that changed as my level increased. But with that came the need to "unlearn" previous approaches to move to more efficient ones. So I wonder: why don't instructors aim for the ultimately correct way to execute technique? I understand that at the very basic level complete beginners need to be eased into movements, but starting at an intermediate level, why not try to teach the "best" technique from the get-go? To go way back to the first comprehensive post by Liquidfeet as an example, why isn't the LIII technique for initiation taught from the beginning, as opposed to the different, LII approach? I remember being taught to extend in transition, and then having to switch from that habit to a smoother, flex-to-release approach.
I am very far from being an instructor (whatever the opposite of an instructor is, I'm probably that :) ) but I showed the basics to a couple of never-evers. I taught them the principle of parallel turns from the beginning, and they went on to really enjoy it and do very well, probably more so than if they had been taught pizza-ing and stemming and whatnot.
I am fully aware that the above is reductive and superficial, but I wonder if the core principle of what I'm saying makes sense.

It's great to have this student's pespective. While others have thoroughly demonstrated that initiate-by-extension has an important role, ideally it's not the only thing or probably the first thing to learn. But others have spoken to the practical challenges of teaching flex-to-initiate in group lessons. A conundrum.

A similar and even more troublesome syndrome of having to unlearn movements comes up in the way many beginners are taught wedge turns. (Other very good threads on this subject.) But I would argue that creating such long term problems in beginner lessons is more easily avoided through good teaching methods. This is an area in which, frankly, many instructors could stand improvement.

I heartily agree that teaching superior, expert movement patterns from the start is the ideal.
 

Chris V.

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Flexing to release at low speed on flat terrain is arguably more difficult for people than an extended release. At higher speeds managing greater forces, the roles are reversed.

A thought-provoking observation. And intermediate level students, and introductions of new movements at all levels, will usually be at relatively low speed, right? It's a lot like how in figure skating, the slow motion school figures may be the hardest thing to do well.
 

James

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These threads are so interesting for a nerdy relative newb like me. I have a general question/comment for the more knowledgeable though. Over the years of taking lessons, I have experienced a range of instruction, that changed as my level increased. But with that came the need to "unlearn" previous approaches to move to more efficient ones. So I wonder: why don't instructors aim for the ultimately correct way to execute technique? I understand that at the very basic level complete beginners need to be eased into movements, but starting at an intermediate level, why not try to teach the "best" technique from the get-go? To go way back to the first comprehensive post by Liquidfeet as an example, why isn't the LIII technique for initiation taught from the beginning, as opposed to the different, LII approach? I remember being taught to extend in transition, and then having to switch from that habit to a smoother, flex-to-release approach.
I am very far from being an instructor (whatever the opposite of an instructor is, I'm probably that :) ) but I showed the basics to a couple of never-evers. I taught them the principle of parallel turns from the beginning, and they went on to really enjoy it and do very well, probably more so than if they had been taught pizza-ing and stemming and whatnot.
I am fully aware that the above is reductive and superficial, but I wonder if the core principle of what I'm saying makes sense.
Both methods are used at the highest levels.
No idea what a "level ii" vs "level iii" release is. I've never experienced any rating system.
 

Steve

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Although flexion and extension initiations are different, I don't teach either to lower level students. The key is just to release at all. If they don't release and they extend the uphill (sic) ski - that's not a release, it's a vault or it gets them stuck on both inside edges, which is pretty natural as they're coming from a wedge focus.

The focus for me is on tipping and flattening the outside ski, letting go of the death grip on the snow with the inside edge, let that ski free and turn it. At slow speeds there's not much extension or flexion needed, just let it go man! The other leg will naturally take over.

And another point is that a turn involves both flexion and extension at the same time, like pedaling a bicycle. So the outside ski flattens, releases and yes the leg shortens - while the inside ski engages and the leg extends.

I think the difference in the two turn initiations is much more significant at higher levels of skiing, and at faster speeds.
 

HardDaysNight

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Flexing and extending are pressure control movements that are independent of “release” movements. One can release a turn WHILE flexing or extending or neither depending, as @markojp alluded to, on requirements for managing pressure. In my view one doesn’t flex or extend TO release. So what does one do? Could be an interesting debate!
 

LiquidFeet

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We are now at the point of "discussing" what a release is.

Differences in the previous several posts may follow from differences of understanding of what the word "release" means. People may be talking about the same movement patterns in different ways and thinking they are disagreeing. Probably we can't get this fixed without being on snow together.

I'm just a snow-deprived skier wanting to experience skiing in any way I can.
 
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markojp

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No idea what a "level ii" vs "level iii" release is. I've never experienced any rating system.

Neither have I.
 

Skisailor

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Although flexion and extension initiations are different, I don't teach either to lower level students. The key is just to release at all. If they don't release and they extend the uphill (sic) ski - that's not a release, it's a vault or it gets them stuck on both inside edges, which is pretty natural as they're coming from a wedge focus.

The focus for me is on tipping and flattening the outside ski, letting go of the death grip on the snow with the inside edge, let that ski free and turn it. At slow speeds there's not much extension or flexion needed, just let it go man! The other leg will naturally take over.

And another point is that a turn involves both flexion and extension at the same time, like pedaling a bicycle. So the outside ski flattens, releases and yes the leg shortens - while the inside ski engages and the leg extends.

I think the difference in the two turn initiations is much more significant at higher levels of skiing, and at faster speeds.

I perked up when you talked above about flexion and extension at the same time. Yes!!! For me this is simply the 3rd of the 3 ways we initiate turns. Other things may be going on in the upper body or with tipping movements, but they do not negate the fact that in every turn initiation (even if it’s very subtle) we are either:
1) extending both legs
2) flexing both legs, or
3) flexing one leg while extending the other.

They all have usefulness in various situations, but If I had to rank them generally in terms of both effectiveness and efficiency, I would rate #3 above as best, then #2, then #1. I personally use #3 most of the time in my personal skiing. But this is one of the things I practice aLOT - being able to vary which method I use literally from turn to turn. It’s an excellent way of increasing your versatility and ability to respond to changing conditions.
 

LiquidFeet

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....
1) extending both legs
2) flexing both legs, or
3) flexing one leg while extending the other.
....

Building on what Skisailor just said, I think of this as:

1) extending both legs simultaneously, seeking equal pressure beneath both feet (you get tall)
2) flexing both legs simultaneously, seeking equal pressure beneath both feet (you stay low)
3) flexing one leg while extending the other simultaneously (you get a little taller)
4) flexing one leg while extending the other sequentially (you may bet taller or stay low)
....a) extending the new outside leg first (you get taller)
....b) flexing the new inside leg first (you stay low)

I don't use the first, but others do in beginner wedge lessons.: sink low at end of turn, stand tall at start of new turn. The second I consider a retraction turn, done in fast short radius turns seeking rebound on hard snow. The third is the "extend-to-release" or "extension turn" discussed above. The 4th is the "flex-to-release" or "flexion turn" discussed above.

Rotating the skis can be added to any of these.
 
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LiquidFeet

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@Mike King, you know what? I think it's impossible to never teach them something they need to unlearn. We are not responsible for what a student does afterwards, days and weeks, months and seasons later, with what we taught them in a lesson. One good, useful movement we teach them during that lesson can get morphed by them into dysfunctional movements easily over time, given their limited understanding and experience. Haven't you seen this?

Adult skiers need to keep taking lessons over time to keep this from happening. Those lessons need to be somewhat in synch with each other. Unfortunately, neither of these is common.
 

Skisailor

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Building on what Skisailor just said, I think of this as:

1) extending both legs simultaneously, seeking equal pressure beneath both feet (you get tall)
2) flexing both legs simultaneously, seeking equal pressure beneath both feet (you stay low)
3) flexing one leg while extending the other simultaneously (you get a little taller)
4) flexing one leg while extending the other sequentially (you may bet taller or stay low)
....a) extending the new outside leg first (you get taller)
....b) flexing the new inside leg first (you stay low)

I don't use the first, but others do in beginner wedge lessons.: sink low at end of turn, stand tall at start of new turn. The second I consider a retraction turn, done in fast short radius turns seeking rebound on hard snow. The third is the "extend-to-release" or "extension turn" discussed above. The 4th is the "flex-to-release" or "flexion turn" discussed above.

Rotating the skis can be added to any of these.

Interesting that you think of retraction for hard snow. I teach it as the more effective way to initiate in powder and crud. (Two of the places where extension is less effective, IMHO).

Also - I recognize your #4 above, but for me this is just a DIRT issue that is really a subset of #3.
 

LiquidFeet

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Interesting that you think of retraction for hard snow. I teach it as the more effective way to initiate in powder and crud. (Two of the places where extension is less effective, IMHO).

Also - I recognize your #4 above, but for me this is just a DIRT issue that is really a subset of #3.

@Skisailor, my experience on soft snow is limited. You teach at Big Sky, right? I'm teaching in New Hampshire where ice rules. Your powder and crud is not our powder and crud. Your bowls are not our off-piste options. So I take you on your word that retraction works best in deepish powder and crud on that nice steep terrain you've got there.
 

Skisailor

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@Mike King, you know what? I think it's impossible to never teach them something they need to unlearn. We are not responsible for what a student does afterwards, days and weeks, months and seasons later, with what we taught them in a lesson. One good, useful movement we teach them during that lesson can get morphed by them into dysfunctional movements easily over time, given their limited understanding and experience. Haven't you seen this?

Adult skiers need to keep taking lessons over time to keep this from happening. Those lessons need to be somewhat in synch with each other. Unfortunately, neither of these is common.

I would add that I think it’s important for instructors to emphasize versatility. So I don’t get hung up on the “having to unlearn” a movement. I think it’s helpful for students to get “yes and” reinforcement rather than feeling they now need to completely delete a movement pattern. I don’t subscribe to the perfect turn. There is no right and wrong. There is only more or less effective and efficient depending on the circumstance.
 

Skisailor

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@Skisailor, my experience on soft snow is limited. You teach at Big Sky, right? I'm teaching in New Hampshire where ice rules. Your powder and crud is not our powder and crud. Your bowls are not our off-piste options. So I take you on your word that retraction works best in deepish powder and crud on that nice steep terrain you've got there.

I get it! It wasn’t a criticism at all. Just an interesting observation. Yes. Our teaching environments are WAY different.
 

Chris V.

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In my view one doesn’t flex or extend TO release.

With one exception--it's possible to use a strong extension to unweight to the point of creating a release. In my view, this can lead to a problematic loss of functional contact with the snow in the first phase of the new turn. Ultimately one still has to move onto new edges and commit to the new outside ski, but perhaps the tendency of this style to lead to a pivot to a new steering angle and a hard "landing" results in newer skiers making that edge change as a natural reaction.
 

Chris V.

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Skisailor writes, "Interesting that you think of retraction for hard snow. I teach it as the more effective way to initiate in powder and crud. (Two of the places where extension is less effective, IMHO.)"

Agreed. I've come to understand how retraction is effective in all kinds of nasty, difficult snow and situations. But it takes COURAGE, because you're letting yourself fall down the hill into what sure feels like the danger zone.
 

Chris V.

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Those lessons need to be somewhat in synch with each other.

This is where I think PSIA, or at least individual ski schools, could stand improvement.

For starters, it's always good to ask students what they've been working on, and what they learned in their last lesson.

Lots of good stuff in this thread. Thank you, everyone.
 

Mike King

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@Mike King, you know what? I think it's impossible to never teach them something they need to unlearn. We are not responsible for what a student does afterwards, days and weeks, months and seasons later, with what we taught them in a lesson. One good, useful movement we teach them during that lesson can get morphed by them into dysfunctional movements easily over time, given their limited understanding and experience. Haven't you seen this?

Adult skiers need to keep taking lessons over time to keep this from happening. Those lessons need to be somewhat in synch with each other. Unfortunately, neither of these is common.
What they do with what you teach them after the lesson really isn't your responsibility. Well, maybe you should think about that in developing your lesson plan, but there's no predicting what they'll do after they leave you.

That being said, I think it is perfectly possible, and in my opinion an obligation of the instructor, not to teach things that they will have to unlearn later in their progression. An examples is turn initiation via the upper body, whether it be through upper body rotation or hucking your meat down the hill.

Personally, I see lots of instructors take the easy way out with the result that the student never learns to release the ski. If you took the time to teach the student from the get-go to flatten the ski and steer it into the turn, they'd be miles ahead when they reach the intermediate stage. But if you let them take the easy way out, they'll spend years trying to learn how to release the ski and it will limit their ability to progress.

From the feet up.

Mike
 

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