Teaching Turn Initiation to Upper Int. & Advanced Skiers

[LiquidFeet]

.....In my view one doesn’t flex or extend TO release.

Actually, flexing the new inside leg tilts the whole body downhill so that it starts to move across the skis. So does extending the new outside leg by lifting the uphill half of the skier. These leg movements simply involve lengthening or shortening a single leg, and are independent of anything the skier might do with the body from the pelvis up. The body tilting movement started by the flexing or extending flattens the skis. So these movements do activate the release, and that's why some refer to them as releases.

One can also release with the foot -- ankle-tip the new inside ski towards being flat (or "untip" or "flatten" if one insists)\to release. Or one can go bow-legged with that new inside leg to flatten that ski. One can do stuff with the upper body too. Blend!

 

[LiquidFeet]

....If you took the time to teach the student from the get-go to flatten the ski and steer it into the turn, they'd be miles ahead when they reach the intermediate stage.....
Mike

Agree. I always teach with a focus on the new inside ski/foot/leg, lightening it, tipping (flattening) it, rotating it if that's called for, and/or pulling it back. It's not the very first thing I do in my never-ever adult lessons, but I do try to get to it before that never-ever 1.5 hour lesson is over.

I start almost every other lesson with it. Most intermediates focus exclusively on the new outside leg to start a turn. They are shocked that I am asking them to focus on the new inside ski/foot/leg.

 

[Skisailor]

Skisailor writes, "Interesting that you think of retraction for hard snow. I teach it as the more effective way to initiate in powder and crud. (Two of the places where extension is less effective, IMHO.)"

Agreed. I've come to understand how retraction is effective in all kinds of nasty, difficult snow and situations. But it takes COURAGE, because you're letting yourself fall down the hill into what sure feels like the danger zone.

I don't disagree at all with your last sentence, but whether you use retraction, extension or long-leg-short-leg initiation (my term for the bicycle flexion-extension move), you should always be moving your COM down the hill into the danger zone. Retraction is no different in that respect.

 

[Skisailor]

What they do with what you teach them after the lesson really isn't your responsibility. Well, maybe you should think about that in developing your lesson plan, but there's no predicting what they'll do after they leave you.

That being said, I think it is perfectly possible, and in my opinion an obligation of the instructor, not to teach things that they will have to unlearn later in their progression. An examples is turn initiation via the upper body, whether it be through upper body rotation or hucking your meat down the hill.

Personally, I see lots of instructors take the easy way out with the result that the student never learns to release the ski. If you took the time to teach the student from the get-go to flatten the ski and steer it into the turn, they'd be miles ahead when they reach the intermediate stage. But if you let them take the easy way out, they'll spend years trying to learn how to release the ski and it will limit their ability to progress.

From the feet up.

Mike

We're not really very far off in our thinking. It's just a matter of perspective and approach. You're right - I doubt I would develop a lesson plan where I purposefully teach upper body rotation as the go-to move to start a turn (although I know a story where it WAS taught to help an amputee turn in the opposite direction of the missing leg). It's just that I think it's important for students to understand that upper body rotation DOES work. It's not wrong per se. In fact with advanced students I will sometimes explore rotation by having them first turn in the spinal column, then with a hip rotation, then with the legs - so they can feel the difference. So we acknowledge that some less effective movement CAN work. Then I explain why another movement might work better. And in my experience, students seem to grasp and retain the information better when they conclude on their own "Wow. This is easier!" or "This works better". Rather than - "Crap. I've been doing this all wrong forever and now I have to change it and change is hard."

Learning the WHYs behind preferred movement patterns is so important and I think the ability to explain why is not where it should be in our instructor world. I was surprised during early season training last year that instructors in my group struggled to explain WHY PSIA prefers leg rotation, for example.

 

[Seldomski]

I'm very late to the party

Thanks for this post. I think you outlined well the 'problem' I have encountered with getting good advanced instruction. I personally have 'solved' this by rarely doing single day lessons. If I do a single day advanced (group) lesson, I have reduced my expectations. Generally they are not much more than a guided tour of the resort plus a couple tips. If I actually want to make a significant improvement, I turn to multi-day lessons, clinics and/or camps.

 

[Mike King]

We're not really very far off in our thinking. It's just a matter of perspective and approach. You're right - I doubt I would develop a lesson plan where I purposefully teach upper body rotation as the go-to move to start a turn (although I know a story where it WAS taught to help an amputee turn in the opposite direction of the missing leg). It's just that I think it's important for students to understand that upper body rotation DOES work. It's not wrong per se. In fact with advanced students I will sometimes explore rotation by having them first turn in the spinal column, then with a hip rotation, then with the legs - so they can feel the difference. So we acknowledge that some less effective movement CAN work. Then I explain why another movement might work better. And in my experience, students seem to grasp and retain the information better when they conclude on their own "Wow. This is easier!" or "This works better". Rather than - "Crap. I've been doing this all wrong forever and now I have to change it and change is hard."

Learning the WHYs behind preferred movement patterns is so important and I think the ability to explain why is not where it should be in our instructor world. I was surprised during early season training last year that instructors in my group struggled to explain WHY PSIA prefers leg rotation, for example.

There's a time and a place for, well maybe not everything, but a lot of things. Note that my suggestion was teach nothing that must be unlearned at a later stage. An advanced student who is learning to ski the half pipe should have little issue with realizing that upper body rotation in the pipe is different than the same on terrain. And an advanced student who's skiing steep technical terrain can be coached to use upper body rotation and anticipation to deal with terrain challenges. Those don't have to be unlearned.

As to explaining why, there are some students for whom this is important, and there are some who could care less. It all depends on context and the student.

Mike

 

[Steve]

I too ski on the East Coast (although I do take at least one Western trip every year.)
I find retraction turns very useful on any kind of cut up soft snow, it doesn't have to be deep. Even a couple of inches of Eastern powder.
I don't feel a need to use it on harder snow, although I've done it. I like to keep contact with the surface if possible, but when the snow is inconsistent the retraction helps to avoid unexpected things happening.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Actually, flexing the new inside leg tilts the whole body downhill so that it starts to move across the skis. So does extending the new outside leg by lifting the uphill half of the skier. These leg movements simply involve lengthening or shortening a single leg, and are independent of anything the skier might do with the body from the pelvis up. The body tilting movement started by the flexing or extending flattens the skis. So these movements do activate the release, and that's why some refer to them as releases.

One can also release with the foot -- ankle-tip the new inside ski towards being flat (or "untip" or "flatten" if one insists)\to release. Or one can go bow-legged with that new inside leg to flatten that ski. One can do stuff with the upper body too. Blend!

Do you remember who wrote the description below?

I thought it was pretty good at the time and still do. Accurate too! I don’t even have to add emphases to important points because the original author already did.

9.Time to hit the jackpot: "over-complete" your turns. Do this by bringing both feet back up under your body so far that your hips and your whole upper body end up, by default, downhill of your feet. It makes sense to call this "Over-Completing" the turns. If you are able to track where your feet are relative to your hips, you'll know when you are doing this... no fair looking; you'll fall on your head.
10. When your feet get above your body (technically, your center of mass) on the hill (even a tiny wee bit), you'll topple onto your new edges without having to do anything else. Your body will have crossed over your skis without you moving it there; the skis will consequently tip onto new edges. Your Sideways-Figure-Eight-Infinity-Move will have initiated your next turn simply because you "over-completed" the last turn. Your feet will have followed one lobe of the Infinity-Move-Sideways-Figure-Eight path. Repeat as you link short radius turns, and you'll feel your feet moving along that Sideways Eight underneath your body quite clearly. A similar version applies to medium and long radius turns, but it's not as dramatic to feel as you are learning it.
11. This is what Bob calls the "do nothing" initiation. You didn't initiate anything, you simply completed the last turn. (I think he used that phrase....)
12. The first time this works, hold onto your socks. You will be surprised at the sensation. That next turn will happen lickity-split fast and unexpectedly, because you didn't make it happen the usual way. Enjoy!

 

[Steve]

Pretty easy guess that it was @LiquidFeet by the thorough writing, and using Google search with the handy site:pugski.com at the end of a few words brought it up. March of 2017!

 

[LiquidFeet]

Well, yeah, that was me.

 

[JESinstr]

I perked up when you talked above about flexion and extension at the same time. Yes!!! For me this is simply the 3rd of the 3 ways we initiate turns. Other things may be going on in the upper body or with tipping movements, but they do not negate the fact that in every turn initiation (even if it’s very subtle) we are either:
1) extending both legs
2) flexing both legs, or
3) flexing one leg while extending the other.

They all have usefulness in various situations, but If I had to rank them generally in terms of both effectiveness and efficiency, I would rate #3 above as best, then #2, then #1. I personally use #3 most of the time in my personal skiing. But this is one of the things I practice aLOT - being able to vary which method I use literally from turn to turn. It’s an excellent way of increasing your versatility and ability to respond to changing conditions.

Building on what Skisailor just said, I think of this as:

1) extending both legs simultaneously, seeking equal pressure beneath both feet (you get tall)
2) flexing both legs simultaneously, seeking equal pressure beneath both feet (you stay low)
3) flexing one leg while extending the other simultaneously (you get a little taller)
4) flexing one leg while extending the other sequentially (you may bet taller or stay low)
....a) extending the new outside leg first (you get taller)
....b) flexing the new inside leg first (you stay low)

I don't use the first, but others do in beginner wedge lessons.: sink low at end of turn, stand tall at start of new turn. The second I consider a retraction turn, done in fast short radius turns seeking rebound on hard snow. The third is the "extend-to-release" or "extension turn" discussed above. The 4th is the "flex-to-release" or "flexion turn" discussed above.

Rotating the skis can be added to any of these.

And here is JF doing just that with number 3! Beginning @ 3:26 in. HMMM doing it in a wedge configuration....... Although he is providing a very dynamic demo of the movement patterns, shouldn't we consider teaching a beginner this way? Although these movements are very subtle at low speed, proper implementation of independent leg action is a critical skill. Might as well address it at the get go... I do.

 

[Skisailor]

And here is JF doing just that with number 3! Beginning @ 3:26 in. HMMM doing it in a wedge configuration....... Although he is providing a very dynamic demo of the movement patterns, shouldn't we consider teaching a beginner this way? Although these movements are very subtle at low speed, proper implementation of independent leg action is a critical skill. Might as well address it at the get go... I do.

Actually, I see nothing except extension turns in this video. No flexion turns nor long-leg/short leg initiations. Yes. As each turn develops, his outside leg extends and the inside leg is shortened by virtue of the fact that he, like all of us, is skiing on an incline. But he uses an extension move (both legs get longer) to start every turn. It's sometimes difficult to see because the slope means that the outside leg extends MORE than the inside one. But to start the turn they are both extending nevertheless, albeit by different amounts. The #3 initiation move described in the posts above is a different animal. The legs are doing entirely different things. The new inside leg flexes while the new outside leg extends to START THE TURN.

I'm glad you brought this up because it's a big area of confusion. We all develop a long leg and a short leg in each turn (as JF does here) but this is unrelated to the turn initiation move. A long leg and a short leg will develop during a turn no matter which method you use to initiate. I was paying close attention to his legs when I watched it the first time. It's very tricky to see it. JF DOES shorten the inside leg but that happens after he first extends it to initiate the turn. But another clue is that his head moves up and down relative to the snow (check out his little "up" move at the start of each wedge turn). The head moves up or down relative to the snow in extension and flexion turns, respectively. But the head stays completely quiet and level when long leg-short leg initiations are used.

 

[JESinstr]

So I guess we need to ignore the entire theme and message of JF's Video which he sums up when he states "Edging happens as a RESULT of the inside leg getting shorter"
In modern skiing, the shortening of the inside leg is crucial to carving turns. It is NOT a passive move that develops at the dictation of the terrain, it is an intentional active move required in order for the body to deliver appropriate edge angles to the outside ski. That's why the title is "How to develop NEW motor patterns"

Any extensions and/or raising you observed was a release to neutral not an initiation extension. IMO

 

[Mike King]

Actually, I see nothing except extension turns in this video. No flexion turns nor long-leg/short leg initiations. Yes. As each turn develops, his outside leg extends and the inside leg is shortened by virtue of the fact that he, like all of us, is skiing on an incline. But he uses an extension move (both legs get longer) to start every turn. It's sometimes difficult to see because the slope means that the outside leg extends MORE than the inside one. But to start the turn they are both extending nevertheless, albeit by different amounts. The #3 initiation move described in the posts above is a different animal. The legs are doing entirely different things. The new inside leg flexes while the new outside leg extends to START THE TURN.

I'm glad you brought this up because it's a big area of confusion. We all develop a long leg and a short leg in each turn (as JF does here) but this is unrelated to the turn initiation move. A long leg and a short leg will develop during a turn no matter which method you use to initiate. I was paying close attention to his legs when I watched it the first time. It's very tricky to see it. JF DOES shorten the inside leg but that happens after he first extends it to initiate the turn. But another clue is that his head moves up and down relative to the snow (check out his little "up" move at the start of each wedge turn). The head moves up or down relative to the snow in extension and flexion turns, respectively. But the head stays completely quiet and level when long leg-short leg initiations are used.

Put the video in slow motion. Watch at 4:10 for several turns -- he is shortening the new inside leg well before the fall line and so extremely that the ski comes off of the snow. Each turn starts with shortening of the new inside leg

Mike

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Actually, I see nothing except extension turns in this video. .

Is what you are seeing the equalizing of pressure on the feet he mentions several times?

 

[Skisailor]

So I guess we need to ignore the entire theme and message of JF's Video which he sums up when he states "Edging happens as a RESULT of the inside leg getting shorter"
In modern skiing, the shortening of the inside leg is crucial to carving turns. It is NOT a passive move that develops at the dictation of the terrain, it is an intentional active move required in order for the body to deliver appropriate edge angles to the outside ski. That's why the title is "How to develop NEW motor patterns"

Any extensions and/or raising you observed was a release to neutral not an initiation extension. IMO

Ignore the entire theme of the video? Not at all! Lol. Not sure how you would get that from what I wrote. I was simply describing what I saw relative to one of my earlier posts. And I don't disagree at all with your last 3 sentences. Not sure how they are relevant to my post though.

 

[Skisailor]

Put the video in slow motion. Watch at 4:10 for several turns -- he is shortening the new inside leg well before the fall line and so extremely that the ski comes off of the snow. Each turn starts with shortening of the new inside leg

Mike

Thanks Mike. I'll take a closer look at those turns and get back to ya!

 

[Skisailor]

Is what you are seeing the equalizing of pressure on the feet he mentions several times?

Perhaps. But that is not at odds with anything in my earlier post.

 

[Skisailor]

Put the video in slow motion. Watch at 4:10 for several turns -- he is shortening the new inside leg well before the fall line and so extremely that the ski comes off of the snow. Each turn starts with shortening of the new inside leg

Mike

Had a moment so got to it quicker than I thought.

Sorry. I have to totally disagree. Yes. There is a point in the turn where he shortens that inside leg and yes, it even comes off the snow. But watch carefully the initiation of the left turn at 4:12-4:13 and the initiation of the right turn at 4:14-4:15. He clearly starts by extending both legs before he gets to the inside leg shortening.

Edited to add - BTW folks, I'm not saying JF is doing anything "wrong"! I'm simply clarifying my earlier post so we are clear that what he does in this video is not the long-leg/short-leg initiation method I was talking about.

 

[Mike King]

Had a moment so got to it quicker than I thought.

Sorry. I have to totally disagree. Yes. There is a point in the turn where he shortens that inside leg and yes, it even comes off the snow. But watch carefully the initiation of the left turn at 4:12-4:13 and the initiation of the right turn at 4:14-4:15. He clearly starts by extending both legs before he gets to the inside leg shortening.

Edited to add - BTW folks, I'm not saying JF is doing anything "wrong"! I'm simply clarifying my earlier post so we are clear that what he does in this video is not the long-leg/short-leg initiation method I was talking about.

@Skisailor, I suspect the issue is the definition of initiation. To me, initiation starts with edge change. And while he is extending the new outside leg prior to edge change, he is also shortening the new inside leg at edge change.

This goes to your argument that the shortening is due to the slope. If he is shortening the inside leg prior to the fall line, then it can't be due to the slope.

Mike