This is a very intelligent inquiry. I would also like to have good video on this to which I could point people, but I'm having trouble finding any that is directed to developing skiers and suitably emphasizes turn initiation by release. Look around on this forum, and you'll find lots of discussion of the concept--release, or relaxing into the new turn, if you will. But instruction video--a bit lacking. The PMTS stuff is the best, but I'm reluctant to go that route.
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Ski School Videos by Elate Media
This is a very intelligent inquiry. I would also like to have good video on this to which I could point people, but I'm having trouble finding any that is directed to developing skiers and suitably emphasizes turn initiation by release. Look around on this forum, and you'll find lots of discussion of the concept--release, or relaxing into the new turn, if you will. But instruction video--a bit lacking. The PMTS stuff is the best, but I'm reluctant to go that route.
Speaking of teaching beginners how to start those first turns with a release (or not)....
In the two Elate Media beginner ski lessons on how to make "snowplow" turns, the instructor (Darren Turner) tells the beginner skier to do these things to start a turn. Comments?
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--you control your speed with how wide the snowplow is
--you need to "push more" with the right leg to make a left turn; "turn the right ski more" to make a left turn; push one "leg out slightly harder" to make that ski take over
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--you push the back of the ski out (the tail of the outside ski), you shouldn't try to "pull" the front of the ski to point it in the direction of the new turn
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Wow. Antique advice, anyone?
That's a great thing to teach first timers on suitable terrain - the concept of spending a moment looking straight down the hill. That eludes many intermediates as soon as they get on something steeper.Ski School video said:
I’m certainly no instructor but I think when my wife learned to ski in her beginners lessons at Vail 5-7 years ago they asked her to relax the right leg and steer with the left ski to turn right and to relax the left left and steer with the right ski to turn left. She seemed to pick it up pretty easily and it worked for her. YMMV.
Yeah, I didn't like that advice too much. I liked many of the other segments, but not these. In lesson 1.4, Turner says that to start a left turn, "I push more on my right leg." This is the whole focus of the lesson. He repeats the advice a few times. Toward the end, he does say, "Turn the foot, and the ski will come round," but it's an afterthought. Anyway, I don't like telling beginners to "turn their feet," because it's likely to result in turning in the ankle rather than in the hip socket, resulting in a flat ski that doesn't engage with the snow. In the "tips" segment, Turner says, "Push the back of the ski." Same problem.
Turner's advice will work to create turns, of course. It's just that it's setting new skiers on a bad pathway as they advance. To go straight downhill in a wedge, a skier has to have everything in a fine balance. Disturb just about any part of that balance, and some kind of turn will result. An exercise I have liked doing with novices is to challenge them to find how many different ways they can initiate a turn starting from a wedge. But at the end I've always let them know my preference, and why. Look up Bud Heishman's posts on teaching initial turns using release, a "go" intention, and leg rotation.
Coach13: sounds like your wife got a good lesson at Vail.
Laughing out loud here. Not at you, marjoram, but at all of us together - the human condition. I've been skiing for fifty years and I probably want that video as much as you do. Or more!
Perhaps the best we can hope for is to keep making enough progress that we're regularly saying to ourselves, "that was more effortless than last time," until eventually we wouldn't even recognize our old turns.
It does seem worth pointing out that good skiing is fundamentally an athletic activity. Those skiers you admire may look like they're not trying hard, but I assure you they're working up a sweat. I suspect the instruction establishment doesn't like to acknowledge this too often.
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true at the upper end of the sport for sure, but at the lower and mid end if your getting tired there is something going wrong.
Great insightful post. I need to work on a lot of things on and off the trail. Right now it's too much effort even to do just the greens.
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PSIA abandoned the breaking wedge much longer that 7 years ago.
That being said, I don't think there are any advanced skiers that do not use the breaking wedge at some time or another whether it be moving into a chair lift maze or pulling up to the lodge etc. But for them it's a choice.
What must be recognized this that the breaking wedge is just that... a break against straight line forces as is directing the skis into a bracing position across the fall line. This type of ski redirection seeks a skeletal solution by PUSHING out the heels vs a ski centered rotation of the foot and leg. And unfortunately, Turner uses the word "PUSH" way to much.
To me, the breaking wedge/snowplow is a great skiing maneuver but it is not the way to learn how develop turns. That's what gave birth to the gliding wedge concept.
One of the many epiphanies in my learning process was that you don't really need to do anything on that outside ski, except to remain centered, in order to turn. All the inelegant techniques that had previously started my turns were very hard to tame. Sure the wedge and rotary skills are still useful but if you haven't experienced turning by just unweighting the inside ski you are most likely stuck in an intermediate rut.
That particular lesson came to me from a J F Beaulieu video where he was describing the angulation as a resuuuult of shortening the inside leg. His charming / annoying French Canadian accent was stuck in my head one day and it finally sunk in. Thanks J F.
My next epiphany btw, is to consistently manage the transition between those zippy arcs on the outside ski. I suspect that my COM is not quite connected to my BOS in the way that makes it go exactly where and when I want. In my mind I'm thinking of an analog - balancing a broom or a rake on the end of my finger. Every kid who is supposed to be helping his dad clean up the yard has walked / run around with that rake trying to keep it upright (instead of actually getting the work done). Once you get the feel for it, it only takes a little bit of guidance to keep in control. Same basic principle.
That particular lesson came to me from a J F Beaulieu video where he was describing the angulation as a resuuuult of shortening the inside leg. His charming / annoying French Canadian accent was stuck in my head one day and it finally sunk in. Thanks J F.
My next epiphany btw, is to consistently manage the transition between those zippy arcs on the outside ski. I suspect that my COM is not quite connected to my BOS in the way that makes it go exactly where and when I want. In my mind I'm thinking of an analog - balancing a broom or a rake on the end of my finger. Every kid who is supposed to be helping his dad clean up the yard has walked / run around with that rake trying to keep it upright (instead of actually getting the work done). Once you get the feel for it, it only takes a little bit of guidance to keep in control. Same basic principle.
LOL. Best to stay away from using the word "breaking" when discussing skiing.
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Mamie went to school in Maine. Trust me when I tell you she is about as diverse as they come.
Yikes. That's a fail for L1. Years ago.
Yeah suitable terrain would be key. Like nearly flat.
In general people spend too much time looking where they don't want to go. Like straight downhill. The brain goes with the eyes and then that's where they're headed - straight downhill. Then it's panic.
It's a bit of a conundrum as one needs to commit downhill but then look across the slope to where the skis should head.
I have difficulty imagining PMTS as a stand alone progression for a beginning skier. I believe side slipping and pivoting are essential skills to learn early, even if just from a safety perspective. Their more recent videos are also somewhat demanding, in the newer Eliminate the Wedge series (a beginner/early intermediate progression), they teach doing the entire turn on one leg (mostly whole ski, not just tail) starting with a traverse on the uphill little toe edge. I don't mind spending my entire ski season working on just that (my current goal), I am not sure everyone would feel the same way.
Nevertheless, I suspect a number of skiers would benefit from being exposed to PMTS. These older Harb videos are an interesting contrast to the Elate media ones, especially as he directly criticizes their methods. A gentler introduction may be needed but perhaps some exposure to PMTS could help beginners avoid making basic mistakes years into their skiing.
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It was a little challenging hunting down all the segments of Harb's new series, but eventually one linked to another. I think there are six, which are actually titled Lessons 1 to 5, with one lesson having two parts. And then Lesson 5 is labeled as part of Series 2, but I don't think there are any more parts to Series 2, and Lesson 5 is geared toward much more advanced skiers.
I didn't see any teaching of a traverse on the little toe edge in the beginner's series. Parts of the series are just Harb doing demos which are plainly beyond the capabilities of beginners. I felt the new series was disjointed, rough around the edges, and certainly very incomplete as a training tool for beginners. Harb's comments were ambiguous as to who would be the intended audience. Sorry, I think he needs a director and an editor.
Harb's older materials present a much more complete and slower paced method of learning for new skiers.
I've never attempted a direct-to-parallel teaching pathway with a brand new skier. However, with some novice (not first time) skiers who were real hard cases, who just couldn't seem to break out of being real stiff with no edging OR rotational skills in the joints, I have on occasion gone back to basics with a whole PMTS progression, beginning with dryland exercises. It's been somewhat effective.
I agree that side slipping and pivoting are essential skills for developing skiers. I don't know that Harb would disagree.
Yes, Harb's methods can be demanding. It's been noted more than once on this site that PMTS progressions are a lot less intimidating, and just, well, more POSSIBLE, on very gentle, wide-open terrain. Sadly, that's in very short supply at some ski resorts. Teaching methods are in part dictated by the terrain available.
As a guy who’s taught/instructed/coached amost everything but skiing, any system of instruction (in any sport) that insists on things being done 1 way only doesn’t pass the sniff test with me. Everyone is of different shapes, sizes, physically capablity and ability and certainly learn differently. I think its the instructors or coach’s responsibility to find the best way for the student to perform the task at hand understanding most will do the task a little different from their fellow students.
Agreed. I had skied for quite a while (badly) before I took a lesson. I could not ski at all if I lifted my inside ski even a little bit which was lesson / task number 1. I think guys like Harb (and many others) don't realize how unbalanced beginners are on the snow.
There is no sideslipping and absolutely no pivoting in PMTS. Pivot slips have no place in that teaching system.
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