Question on ski boot flex and skier development

[Wendy]

Seems like every Bob Barnes post I read one thought goes thru my head. "Where the hell were you when I was spending all that time figuring out what you can so easily put into words". The mark of any great instructor/teacher is the ability to describe concepts in a language that the student can understand. You Mister Barnes excel at this skill. Thank You for each and every one of your most insightful posts.
Mark B.

Yeah...I was thinking the same thing: Where was Bob when I was learning to ski? Or: Why didn't I seek out someone like Bob?

 

[Wendy]

@Tricia, are you still on the Tecnica Mach1 105?

 

[Tricia]

Yes. This is my second season in it, but I'll probably look at replacing it at the end of this season. I'm looking forward to seeing what's new at SIA and trying some new stuff on. There is a good chance I'll get another Tecnica.

 

[Monique]

I'm not sure how Bob and Phil post this so clearly. I understand it but don't always have the words to make it clear.

The summary is: Appropriate boot flex is determined by (but not exclusive to)

• Ability
• Ankle ROM
• Athleticism
• Height

*And thats not touching on other factors in picking the right boot.

I don't know nothing about nothing, but Tricia's answer makes more sense to me than "Stiffer is better."

 

[Cheizz]

Thanks everyone, and especially @Bob Barnes for the clear explanation. It does make sense now.

So bottom line: a softer boot untill the skier gets the hang of balancing (fore-aft) and compensate with the rest of the body for the fact that the heel is strapped down. Once he masters that, put him in stiffer boots, so he can actually apply the pressue on the ski better. Apart from proper fit and flex choice for body weight and hight, etc.

 

[Ron]

ahh, define "stiffer"....... whats too stiff or not stiff enough ?

 

[Tricia]

ahh, define "stiffer"....... whats too stiff or not stiff enough ?

Boom!!!

 

[Cheizz]

Good point. How one defines that? the same way as one defines 'soft enough' and 'not to stiff' for the first pair, I suppose. A good boot fitter seems to be the way to go. Again: the same question applies to that first pair of boots, which didn't quite pose this problem...

 

[Ron]

 

[cantunamunch]

Like a goniometer? Yes, but this mod is more about getting the power strap on the liner & Tecnica now provides the relief lines on the shell. Secondary benefit is the softening of the top cuff & ease of the start of turn / feedback.

Sure, I was rather interested in testing secondary consequences and, through those, our working assumptions.

Much is made of initiating tipping from the ankles but also about lateral stiffness which would naturally include the top of the clog. Comparing wall deflection rates in cut and uncut clogs would be of interest in that regard, no?
Further, one starting premise of all the flex discussion above is that the angle of the boot spine is fixed wrt. the sole, and that the body's righting reflex uses that angle to create a sensation of being upright. It would be amusing, I think, to confirm that by measuring hypothetical spine deflection under load in cut and uncut clogs, no?
Once we had those numbers it would be a rather useful standard for comparison relative to oh, say, the sagittal plane rotation of the entire boot around the pivot of the heel support in a binding that allows vertical deflection at the toe.

 

[crgildart]

A recent and very brief experiment with my younger son proved to me Bob Barnes is correct. My son is now 13 and has almost the same size feet as me (27.5)but he weighs only 95 lbs. I found him the largest sized junior boot on the planet for cheap (no one wanted it in that size) with a "75" flex. We swapped boots for a run. My Raptors forced him to up-unweight as he couldn't pressure the tips while flexed. We'll, he couldn't really flex the boots (120). Retraction? He couldn't even pressure the ski, so how could he do that? I could actually ski ok in his much softer boots given it was a jr. race boot and the lateral stiffness was there. It was a one run experiment that taught us both a lesson. It taught him that Dad's boots are too stiff and heavy for him, and it taught me that lateral stiffness is more important than forward stiffness, even with a lower cuff.

My level 2-3ish of 9 daughter had a heel lug crack on the boots that fit her. I had on hand a pair of Lange 120s that I thought would also fit her but opted to just bite the bullet and shop around for a softer pair. She weights about 115 but I knew the race boots would be too difficult for her to pressure different sections of the ski with. Her older brother is actually a little smaller than she is. He may end up in the 120s but even he will probably outgrow them before his ski ability reaches the level required for an actual race boot. Daughter is now in some Nordica Trends..

 

[François Pugh]

ahh, define "stiffer"....... whats too stiff or not stiff enough ?

IMHO, "Too stiff" is unable to flex boots while making the turns one makes more often than not (or the turns one cares about).
"Not stiff enough" is does not provide enough support when skiing with high forces, forcing skier to become exhausted, unbalanced and way out of position when skiing with high forces. Also not stiff enough presents boot squish, delay, and excessive movement in between foot command and ski response.

 

[razie]

A common misconception is that skiers need to flex the boots to "be forward"... which is false. If the boots are properly fitted, one should be forward enough without bending plastic. In terms of fore/aft, the plastic is there for support, not a workout.

Too often, lack of good fore/aft setup is replaced by a boot that's too soft, one which cannot support even 1g without collapsing and causing the skier to back off.

Let that tint the flex and development argument

"What's too stiff" is not a simple equation: my 13 yo, at 115 lbs can crush his 110 flex cuffs at will. Not that he should... but it's a function of technique, body type and boot setup... as well as what you want to do: I would not ski fast over bumpy terrain in a 170 boot with every little jolt under pressure sent up the stack - some suspension would be welcome.

 

[cantunamunch]

Ok, thought experiment. Skier is in properly flexed boots - whatever properly means in your (the answerer's) definition. Skier is standing on hard shop floor, balanced between two feet.

We then proceed to put a 25cm footstool under one foot and tell the skier to balance any way they like.

What happens at the hips? Should they be level in a properly flexed boot? What about 30cm?

 

[crgildart]

A common misconception is that skiers need to flex the boots to "be forward"... which is false. If the boots are properly fitted, one should be forward enough without bending plastic. In terms of fore/aft, the plastic is there for support, not a workout.
.

I agree all but this part of your post.. Fore/Aft is relative to the pitch/steepness of the terrain you are skiing, and that is variable. Therefore, a boot is only going have perfect fore/aft for the pitch of terrain that perfectly matches the ramp angle of that particular boot.. Add in extension and absorption through bumps/skiing moguls and we're doing quite a bit of boot flexing.

What you're saying would only be true for someone skiing the same pitch/degree/slope all the time.

 

[Monique]

Also if I had to be forward enough all the time to match the pitch of the steepest terrain I ski, I would be very very very unhappy. Boots are trending toward more upright uppers, and it is a lot easier on the legs for all those times you're *not* skiing.

 

[razie]

I agree all but this part of your post.. Fore/Aft is relative to the pitch/steepness of the terrain you are skiing, and that is variable. Therefore, a boot is only going have perfect fore/aft for the pitch of terrain that perfectly matches the ramp angle of that particular boot.. Add in extension and absorption through bumps/skiing moguls and we're doing quite a bit of boot flexing.

What you're saying would only be true for someone skiing the same pitch/degree/slope all the time.

it's inconvenient to change boots in between runs... So I would choose the boot of the day dependobg on the type of terrain and skiing I will be doing... As I said in the part you seem to have agreed with already....

 

[razie]

Ok, thought experiment. Skier is in properly flexed boots - whatever properly means in your (the answerer's) definition. Skier is standing on hard shop floor, balanced between two feet.

We then proceed to put a 25cm footstool under one foot and tell the skier to balance any way they like.

What happens at the hips? Should they be level in a properly flexed boot? What about 30cm?

You mean this
View media item 1189
Looks like 30cm. Foot shuffle : minimal, as the inside boot is well under the outside knee. 130 flex which granted is pretty soft for him...

Cheers

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I got new boots this season and it was a game changer for me. Last season I had Atomic Hawx 80s and this year after a very long fitting with my fitter I would up with Rossignol Pure Elite 120s. He dialed them back so they flex is closer to 110.

Is it a coincidence these boots are a better fit for me, stiffer and and thus my skiing has improved by a lot or was it the multiple clinics I had with my instructor comrades at my mountain and a lot of hard work on my part or a combination of all these things?

All I know is for the first time in my life I feel like my boots are talking to my skis. I've never felt this in prior seasons so I'm inclined to think it's a better fitting boot that's coincidentally or not stiffer. One of my instructor comrades has said my skiing is night and day between last season and now so I'm inclined to give my boots the credit, with hard work of course on my part too but das boots oh yeah.

 

[Uncle-A]

I got new boots this season and it was a game changer for me. Last season I had Atomic Hawx 80s and this year after a very long fitting with my guy I would up with Rossignol Pure Elite 120s. He dialed them back so they flex is closer to 110.

Is it a coincidence these boots are a better fit for me, stiffer and and thus my skiing has improved by a lot or was it the multiple clinics I had with my instructor comrades at my mountain and a lot of hard work on my part.

All I know is for the first time in my life I feel like my boots are talking to my skis. I've never felt this in prior seasons so I'm inclined to think it's a better fitting boot that's coincidentally or not stiffer. One of my instructor comrades has said my skiing is night and day from last year until now so I'm inclined to give my boots the credit, with hard work of course on my part too but I das boots oh yeah.

All of the above. New boots, multiple clinics, and hard work. Keep it up and way to go.