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Cheizz

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It is often said (on forums in Europe, anyway) that a ski boot with too high a flex can hinder a beginner or lower intermediate skier in his developent. I don't really understand why.

If the boot fits properly, and flex really is the only thing in question here: what is it that a developing skier cannot do in (too) high flex boots that he should be able to do in order to learn better/quicker?

It's not that I don't believe it, but I would love to understand why this would be the case...
 

KevinF

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I would think that it's not so much a question of what the beginner skier cannot do in stiffer boot; rather I think of it as a question of what they are doing.

I saw a comment once in a similar discussion on a different forum; while I don't remember it verbatim, it was along the lines of "stiff boots are great at transmitting all motions of the foot to the ski... including those that you don't want".

A beginner in a stiff boot is going to be transmitting everything into the ski and that's not necessarily a good thing. A softer boot should absorb some of the excess motion without transmitting it to the skis.

I can see the flip side of this; if you start out in a stiffer boot, then you better learn to ski efficiently or you'll be landing on your ass a lot. That just seems like an overly harsh approach to me.
 

Philpug

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I saw a comment once in a similar discussion on a different forum; while I don't remember it verbatim, it was along the lines of "stiff boots are great at transmitting all motions of the foot to the ski... including those that you don't want".
:beercheer:

When getting a better boot, and that is usually a stiffer boot, you are getting a better built boot as well. Better but with better materials and most importantly a better liner that is actuallyy shaped like a foot. With that said, a stiffer boot? Well what is the skiers ROM? How much ankle flexion does he or she have? If it is minimal, he/she might need a stiffer boot even with their minimal skills. Stiffness has as much to do with physique as it does ability. @KevinF brings some very good points in and IMHO awareness of what to expect out of a boot that could be more responsive is also important.
 
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Cheizz

Cheizz

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:beercheer:

When getting a better boot, and that is usually a stiffer boot, you are getting a better built boot as well. Better but with better materials and most importantly a better liner that is actuallyy shaped like a foot. With that said, a stiffer boot? Well what is the skiers ROM? How much ankle flexion does he or she have? If it is minimal, he/she might need a stiffer boot even with their minimal skills. Stiffness has as much to do with physique as it does ability. @KevinF brings some very good points in and IMHO awareness of what to expect out of a boot that could be more responsive is also important.

My thoughts exactly. There is more to this than just that a lower flex boot is more forgiving. Flex does not only translate to stiffness, but also to liner thickness and shape, forward lean, etc. Right? So can we agree that just saying " too high a flex (even for a heavier person) is bad for skier development" is too simply put, and there is much more nuance in this?
 

Brian Finch

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I think that if the boot is too stiff for your weight, ability or terrain-you tend to end up in the backseat and you go from a centered stance, driving through the tongue to muscling off the back spoiler.

I struggle with this a lot at my weight and tend to use a variety of flex cuts in the boots: here's my latest that has been phenomenal for initiating the turns-
 

Brian Finch

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IMG_1275.JPG
 
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Cheizz

Cheizz

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I think that if the boot is too stiff for your weight, ability or terrain-you tend to end up in the backseat

Why exactly is that? The fact that you end up in the back seat seems to be the consensus, but no-one has been able to explain clearly why that is... Anyone?
 

Wendy

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Why exactly is that? The fact that you end up in the back seat seems to be the consensus, but no-one has been able to explain clearly why that is... Anyone?
I happened to me in a pair of race boots. Once they adapted to the outside temperature and stiffened up, I could no longer flex forward enough to work the ski and ended up steering the ski from the back half of my foot. Without the front of the ski properly weighted, I could see the tips bouncing along the surface. It was very unnerving and strange to feel this progression from making good turns in a warm, sorfter boot at the start, to feeling the boot stiffen and my control decrease as the boot lost heat.

If I didn't have the experience of knowing what it felt like to properly weight a ski and shape a turn, I might never have realized something was wrong. After all, I was flexed forward and was still able to edge the skis.
 

Bob Barnes

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Why exactly is that? The fact that you end up in the back seat seems to be the consensus, but no-one has been able to explain clearly why that is... Anyone?

It's pretty simple, really. The vitally important flexing-extending movement patterns of skiing are specific to the sport, and they represent a skill that must be learned. Without skis or ski boots--in "normal" shoes--when you bend down low to pick up something off the floor, your heels will lift and your ankles will bend to a degree limited only by their range of motion. Both of these movements (heels lifting and ankles "dorsiflexing") move everything above them forward, compensating for the hips moving back when the knees bend, and allowing you to keep your balance.

With stiff, snug ski boots that limit ankle movement and ski bindings that lock your heels to your skis, the same knee bending movements would move everything back unless you compensate with other forward movements. Those movements can come from the hips, the spine, or the arms (or any combination) bending or reaching forward. They are not particularly difficult, but they are "new" movements specific to skiing. The sooner we learn and adopt these ski-specific flexing and extending movements, the quicker our skiing progress will be.

With stiff, snug boots, beginners typically simply don't flex much--prompting the ubiquitous and time-honored advice to "bend ze knees." They simply cannot bend their knees and keep their balance without learning new movements higher up in the "kinetic chain." And if they hit a bump or something that causes the knees to bend and absorb the impact, the stiff boots throw them quickly into the proverbial "back seat," for the reasons I described above.

"Soft" boots are somewhat more forgiving for beginners because (combined with a typically looser fit), they allow more "normal" ankle movement. They may allow beginners to keep their balance fore-and-aft more easily before they learn their new ski-specific movement patterns. But of course, getting away with errors can hinder learning as well, and even contribute to learning bad habits.

Stiffer boots are critical to skiing for several reasons. Evolved along with our short little feet, ankles are not strong enough to deal with the increased leverage of long skis. We need to regulate the pressure along the full length of the skis--sometimes forward, sometimes back, usually right in the center--maintaining balance throughout a full range of "vertical" motion, even as dramatically varying terrain and speeds constantly conspire to threaten that fore-aft balance. So we need both the added strength and support ski boots give to our ankles, and new, sophisticated combinations of knee, hip, spine, and arm movements. In my opinion, for anyone who wants to learn to ski well, the sooner you get yourself into a high-performance, well-fitted and well-adjusted boot, the quicker you'll learn the new movements without reinforcing bad habits.

That does not mean getting the stiffest race boot you can find! Some ankle flex is necessary, both to forgive the inevitable error and to absorb the small micro-shocks of terrain irregularities, "washboards," and the like, as well as to provide the ultimate precision "fine-tuning" to fore-aft balance. It's notable that downhill racers (highest speed, longest turns, emphasis on gliding speed) typically use somewhat softer boots than slalom and GS racers, because the softer boots allow their skis to glide better and faster.

There is a lot of mythology about ski boots and the role of ankle flex and boot flex in performance skiing. Many skiers still insist that we must be able to flex our ankles deeply as part of creating ski performance. Without getting into too much side-tracking detail, I'll just ask a question I've often asked: How do skis respond to "boot flex"? The answer, of course, is that they don't. They respond to pressure, including fore-aft pressure shifts, and as skiers, the more precisely and accurately we can regulate that pressure, the better. With the right learned skills, we can flex and extend through our full range, manage the dramatic forces of high-performance turns, and absorb large moguls, while maintaining fore-aft balance throughout. This requires the ability to find fore-aft "neutral" in our boot cuffs at all times, regardless of the degree of knee flexion or extension. If I need to "flex my boots" every time I bend my knees, I will be extremely limited in my ability to balance, flex, extend, and regulate fore-aft pressure.

Get good boots and learn the right movements!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
 
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crgildart

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A boot with too much forward lean and too stiff to bend some is too aggressive FORE/aft for flatter terrain. It's exhausting and uncomfortable to wear standing around in group lessons, waiting in line, etc, all things beginners and low intermediates spend more time doing. It's a formula for an uncomfortable and frustrating skiing experience. Stiffer aggressive lean boots feel great when skiing steeper terrain, but still not so great standing around in. I'll go with a softer intermediate boot when skiing greens and easy blues with my kids all day. I'll ride a stiffer race oriented boot when skiing with the big kids on steeper stuff all day.... unless I'm expecting long lift lines... then I'll go with the more forgiving boots.
 

Guy in Shorts

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Seems like every Bob Barnes post I read one thought goes thru my head. "Where the hell were you when I was spending all that time figuring out what you can so easily put into words". The mark of any great instructor/teacher is the ability to describe concepts in a language that the student can understand. You Mister Barnes excel at this skill. Thank You for each and every one of your most insightful posts.
Mark B.
 

Tricia

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I'm not sure how Bob and Phil post this so clearly. I understand it but don't always have the words to make it clear.

The summary is: Appropriate boot flex is determined by (but not exclusive to)
  • Ability
  • Ankle ROM
  • Athleticism
  • Height

*And thats not touching on other factors in picking the right boot.
 

François Pugh

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Forgiveness be damned! It's not about forgiveness; that's just a side effect.

As an advanced skier of of more than a few decades, I much prefer a stiff boot and a stiff ski (when I'm not skiing moguls, - for moguls I can accept a ski that bends without bridging the moguls), but at my weight, I need to ski fast and/or dynamically to flex stiff boot and skis. As an intermediate skier I was a speed-addicted adrenaline junky, so I benefited from the stiff boot on the whole, even if it did delay my learning curve. I went from leather to leather with plastic to mushy rentals and then rebounded to the stiffest boots I could find. The stiffest ones were the best, but I didn't get them until I was already skiing everything I could see anyone else skiing and get to.

The assumption is that most beginners and intermediate skiers ski slowly and not dynamically. A stiff boot will not let them flex the ankle and move back and forth enough to use their limited weight to advantage at slower speeds, preventing them from moving their body parts properly, and thus hinder their learning.
 

Brian Finch

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Do you by any chance have an external fixed geometry jig accurate enough to measure boot spine angles with your foot actually in them?


Like a goniometer? Yes, but this mod is more about getting the power strap on the liner & Tecnica now provides the relief lines on the shell. Secondary benefit is the softening of the top cuff & ease of the start of turn / feedback.
 

quant

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A recent and very brief experiment with my younger son proved to me Bob Barnes is correct. My son is now 13 and has almost the same size feet as me (27.5)but he weighs only 95 lbs. I found him the largest sized junior boot on the planet for cheap (no one wanted it in that size) with a "75" flex. We swapped boots for a run. My Raptors forced him to up-unweight as he couldn't pressure the tips while flexed. We'll, he couldn't really flex the boots (120). Retraction? He couldn't even pressure the ski, so how could he do that? I could actually ski ok in his much softer boots given it was a jr. race boot and the lateral stiffness was there. It was a one run experiment that taught us both a lesson. It taught him that Dad's boots are too stiff and heavy for him, and it taught me that lateral stiffness is more important than forward stiffness, even with a lower cuff.
 
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Ron

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I still contend that dry-land training to improve proprioception, balance and overall movement patterns are under-appreciated and critical to the unnatural movements Bob described. many people dont have good posture or stand correctly (and even worse in ski boots). I struggled with this for years until a PT noticed it during ACL rehab and we worked to correct body alignment. I also skied a lot of crud and broken in the top buckles undone to learn to feel and balance better.
 

Tricia

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A recent and very brief experiment with my younger son proved to me Bob Barnes is correct. My son is now 13 and has almost the same size feet as me (27.5)but he weighs only 95 lbs. I found him the largest sized junior boot on the planet for cheap (no one wanted it in that size) with a "75" flex. We swapped boots for a run. My Raptors forced him to up-unweight as he couldn't pressure the tips while flexed. We'll, he couldn't really flex the boots (120). Retraction? He couldn't even pressure the ski, so how could he do that? I could actually ski ok in his much softer boots given it was a jr. race boot and the lateral stiffness was there. It was a one run experiment that taught us both a lesson. It taught him that Dad's boots are too stiff and heavy for him, and it taught me that lateral stiffness is more important than forward stiffness, even with a lower cuff.
We have options for kids like your son, in our shop.
Its interesting to see kids his size, who are pretty light, and really interesting to see what some fitters will put on a kid like that.
 

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