Press Release: Former Burton Exec Set to Shake Up the Alpine Ski Boot Business

[WheatKing]

My Jetsons imagination is of accurate 3D foot scanning that gets fed into a 3D printer with algorithms coordinated with liner construction that makes a shell on the spot with material stiffness able to be tuned and that can still be punched after the fact when the skier's foot changes. Let's see someone do that

humm... like Dodge does..

 

[Josh Matta]

whats the last width?

 

[Monster]

humm... like Dodge does..

Yeah, sort of, except for the second half of the vision; make the shell to the scan with a 3d printer so you don't have to punch. . . There are machines that will do it now, like the ones that shoot lasers into pools of resin, only I don't think they have the materials sorted yet. Probably wouldn't make something very nicely finished.

In the meantime, it's nice that there's still room on the planet for good hand work.

 

[Started at 53]

Take it for what it’s worth, but IF you are picking your boots out, you are doing it wrong, go to a GOOD bootfitter and let them pick your boots based on your feet

 

[Roundturns]

I have a different take on this, Whatever keeps people on the snow and (hopefully) smiling is good with me. If this boot helps, then how is that a bad thing? A boot like this doesn't have to work for the top 8% of the market, it just needs to work for 10%-15%. My fellow pugs, lets not forget that we, for the most part, are the upper 1-10% of the market.

The size of the potential market I find very interesting specific to a top exec at Burton "taking a flyer" and believing this product has a significant upside. I have no idea how many of these boots could be sold each year, but thinking the unit numbers would be maybe 10,000-20,000? Comments regarding the potential of the rental boot market I think positions the product where it delivers its best value proposition which I think is comfort and increases the units that could be sold.
I have zero zilch interest in the boot, but acknowledge I am not the target customer.
If I was a highly compensated Burton exec , I don't think I would jump ship And believe this boot is the next big thing.

 

[Brian Finch]

I hated my rental boot phase, and can get Lange RS130 on and off without too much trouble, but seeing posters like @Brian Finch and @Josh Matta talk glowingly about their high-performance three-piece Full Tilt's and Dalbello's has me wondering about my next boot purchase. Why don't rental boots use the well-established three-piece/cabrio design to encourage beginners to keep skiing? Wouldn't a fairly snug cabrio boots be as easy for them to put on as a three-sizes-too-large overlap two-piece design?

As for the Dahu boot, I can't imagine it would have the necessary backbone for a Clydesdale skier.

I like your thinking, yet they have a few drawbacks:

•lots of moving parts need to line up

•you need to have the ‘right’ foot - they tend to work better for large ankles

•cabrios work best with wrap liners, they are strange initially

•the attachments point of the tongue is a weakness

That said, the Cabrio/wrap liner has solved the comfort equation for myself & I doubt I’ll be heading back.

 

[Brian Finch]

Who is it for? People who want to go skiing.

Who is it not for? Skiers.

Just figured i'd go ahead and put up the review for Philpug.

@epic & I have never been so aligned.

 

[Ron]

Why is there so much focus on the rental market? I really don’t see it there. Too high of a cost and I doubt they are durable as regular boots.

 

[markojp]

The rental market is bigger and more important to the bottom line than you think, that's all.

 

[Wolfski]

It's time for you to move on and not go to those new 1980's boots in reserve in the closet!
Having said that I'm all for a new rear entry quality boot. I just saw a guy in Nordica N90 rear entries. He was a pretty good wedeler/tail pusher. Not sure that boot was good for much else.

Have they approached Bode yet? He seems to be shilling now for Full Tilt.

Ever see Ghirardelli ski in a Greek boot?

 

[pete]

Absolutely! In another thread we discussed what is needed to keep/get people on the snow. I guarantee it's NOT crappy fitting boots, either by design or fitment, that provide a terrible first time experience. Whether this boot will revolutionize higher performance boot is yet to be seen but if it can "revolutionize" rental/beginner/intermediate boots, that will be a big win. We ponder Raptors, RS, Recons, plug vs. non-plug, etc. but very rarely speak about the boots that the majority of skiers are looking for: easy entry/exit, warm, and comfortable. Flex, control, and all the other things an advanced or expert skier looks for aren't even in the beginner's lexicon, let alone anything they'll care about.

So, I'll take the wait-and-see attitude. Maybe this will surprise.

Cost overall of skiing is to me the biggest issue. While there are some deals on season passes I feel overall from when I started ~ 15yrs ago, between lifts, travel, food, lodging, etc that for those not in ski locations it's simply a numbers game.

If I started today, with 5 in my family we'd likely hit some other outdoor activity over skiing.

Perhaps a dual use of the boots help offset and I'd agree if more comfortable to the beginner, better initial fit, may snare more into the sport/activity but even with discounts, I can't easily hit a vacation 5 days skiing for 5 even driving for much less than $3K.

 

[Ron]

The rental market is bigger and more important to the bottom line than you think, that's all.

I am quite aware of the revenue and the importance to shops; that's the point. Any idea of the per unit cost of these boots or their expected lifespan in a rental fleet? I dont know the answer but everyone is talking about these as rental boots but they dont seem to make financial sense for that purpose. Why aren't there Apex rentals? People love to talk about how skiers in rental boots are always in shells that are too large or not fit correctly but that's not the boot, its the person in the shop who fits them. My friends who work during the peak hours/times don't have time to properly fit skiers. Coupled that with the skiers apathy towards getting a proper fit (including my own in laws who ski 10 days per season. only 2 have their own boots and they weren't fit, and don't care to, the other rent they just want them to be warm and not hurt their feet) . I haven't looked into this boot but I just ask why would a shop buy these boots if the cost is higher and they don't last as long if the renter doesn't really care? Want to improve the skier experience? add boot heaters. Thats actually one of the top complaints I hear. No, I'm not serious, that would be a nightmare

 

[markojp]

Rentals generally run in 3 year cycles when purchased new, then get bought and recycled as rentals by smaller shops/operations.

On the cold feet note, I'd guess much of that has to do with boots that fit poorly, no proper footbed ( yes, some rental outfits DO sell and encourage the use of trim to fits), and inappropriate socks.

 

[Ron]

Rentals generally run in 3 year cycles when purchased new, then get bought and recycled as rentals by smaller shops/operations.

On the cold feet note, I'd guess much of that has to do with boots that fit poorly, no proper footbed ( yes, some rental outfits DO sell and encourage the use of trim to fits), and inappropriate socks.

agree, the reality is regardless of the quality of the boot, if it doesn't fit correctly, it won't perform as it should. it really comes down to "what's the objective", up here ,a rental is about $15-30per day for basic rentals. In a highly competitive, saturated market driven almost solely by cost, how much can a shop invest or spend per rental and try to educate/convince the avg renter to take the time and attention (mom & dad typically wrangling kids) to be properly set up? I whole heartedly support doing things correctly but the economics and market/customer support isn't there. My LSS does offer high level rental and demo programs BTW but few people will pay $50-75 per day even to be able to swap out new ski's at the base. One of the biggest draws to customers has been convenience: home delivery of gear and ability to store gear at ski-base locations.

 

[Big J]

Fwiw, reviews mean nothing for boots. They either work for the shape/volume/mechanics of our feet and the forces we manage, or they don't.

I have not skied them yet and do not know if they will meet my requirements and what I am expecting. What I do know is the size, shape, width of my foot and my skiing preferences and ability. Reviews of boots do tell me if they SHOULD accomplish meeting my requirements so I start there. A boot fitter and a demo may be better but I chose not to go that route. Thanks for the input.

 

[Swiss Toni]

Ron said:
“Any idea of the per unit cost of these boots”

The full retail prices for Dahu boots here in Switzerland are the equivalent of $600 for the 100-flex boot, $700 for the 120-flex boot and $800 for the 140-flex boot, for comparison the full retail price of the Head Raptor 140 RS is the equivalent of $625. They are probably too expensive for rental.

To date I don’t think anybody in Europe has tried renting them. Dahu did come up with a concept for rental, but they don’t seem to have put it into operation.


Where might that work in the US?

Roundturns said:
“I have no idea how many of these boots could be sold each year, but thinking the unit numbers would be maybe 10,000-20,000?

Sales to date have been very limited, in total they sold (to retailers) 7000 pairs between 2013 and 2017, I have heard that breakeven is 12,000 pairs p.a. World alpine ski boot sales are estimated at 3.5 million pair p.a. They are very much a niche product.

Does anybody have any idea of how much Clark Gundlach would be prepared to pay for a copy of the Apex boot owners mailing list?

 

[Noodler]

Design of an Endoskeleton Ski Boot

I read this about a month ago. This type of approach to ski boot design is only going to work once there are people involved that actually understand how skiers ski and the critical control surfaces of the foot and leg that must be accounted for in the ski boot design. Until that happens, I don't care if you're a beginner or an expert, it will still be "no bueno".

 

[T-Square]

Back to the boot that started this thread, I see it as a great boot for some adaptive skiers; individuals with ankle flex issues come to mind. These were the individuals that we use to put in rear entry boots because the did not need to flex to put the boot on.

 

[WheatKing]

Design of an Endoskeleton Ski Boot

I read this about a month ago. This type of approach to ski boot design is only going to work once there are people involved that actually understand how skiers ski and the critical control surfaces of the foot and leg that must be accounted for in the ski boot design. Until that happens, I don't care if you're a beginner or an expert, it will still be "no bueno".

I've been mesmerized by this blog recently: https://skimoves.me/

A Former worldcup boot fitter who is into serious biomechanical studies of the foot and ankle and how current boots only work for some people, and the extent of modifications he had to perform to make boots work for more people at world cup level.

It's completely changed what i think and what I thought I knew about ski boots as much of it flies in the face of what we generally consider as "fact" regarding boots. Some experimentation is in order.

As for these burton boots.. meh, they'll be for skiers who don't ski, which considering how many people are in the lodge when i'm skiing, is significant. I really need to get moving on my snowboard binding for boarders who don't board.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Why is there so much focus on the rental market? I really don’t see it there. Too high of a cost and I doubt they are durable as regular boots.

I don't see it as a rental either. I se it as a boot for a person who is currently rental customer and would probably not buy real boots.