Pivot slip demo

[Mike King]

Curious to see what the opinion is on the "official" pivot slip demos.

Well, those are national team members, so supposedly they are pretty good. That being said, I don't think they are as good as they could be. The third demonstrator had substantial deviation from the fall line descent. And all of them had a deviation as the pressure exchanged from one ski to the other.

I THINK my linked pivot slips are better than any of those, but some video might tell whether they are or not. I've had a couple of demo team members tell me that mine are quite good in the last two weeks...

 

[Mike King]

The girl, the last skier, did the first two ok.

Maybe it is the camera angle, but it appears to me that she has considerable across the hill motion on all of her pivot slips. Could be that there is a change in the fall line...

 

[Chef23]

I tried these for the first time the other day and I seem to have some mobility issues preventing me from getting my skis turned across the hill completely while keeping my chest and hips facing downhill. I am tremendously inflexible especially in the hips. Is that an issue sometimes.

A second question does type of ski make a difference. I would think a straighter sidecut ski would be easier than a deep sidecut ski.

 

[razie]

I tried these for the first time the other day and I seem to have some mobility issues preventing me from getting my skis turned across the hill completely while keeping my chest and hips facing downhill. I am tremendously inflexible especially in the hips. Is that an issue sometimes.

A second question does type of ski make a difference. I would think a straighter sidecut ski would be easier than a deep sidecut ski.

for 1. Often it's more the range of motion that's foreign to most - we don't do many things on a daily basis that requires using that specific hip joint, that way and that much! Just keep at it daily, a few runs and push that stress a little more every time - if it doesn't improve or you know you have some mobility issues, talk to a PT. Keep the poles across the hips, to see where they're actually pointing most of the time.

for 2. No, it doesn't. you can "feather" any ski in and out of engagement. Longer skis may be harder to pivot cleanly. Also, the slope makes a difference: the steeper and more groomed, the easier.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Curious to see what the opinion is on the "official" pivot slip demos.

The first and last demo involve a visible up move, caused by an extension of the uphill leg to release the skis. The middle two eliminate/minimize the up move by reducing that extension and focusing instead on flexing the downhill leg for the release.

The first demo involves a pole touch. The third involves a barely-there pole swing, but no touch. The second doesn't do much with the poles; the skier carries them along for the ride. The fourth allows the poles to intermittently drag a little.

I'm not willing to evaluate these four demos against an invisible ideal pivot slip. Where is that ideal? What's the point in having an ideal? All of these are fine.

My take-away is that for PSIA certification exams, which is what the Matrix is all about, some variation is acceptable in how a by-the-books pivot slip is done. I really like that. It's good the organization is affirming slightly different versions.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I tried these for the first time the other day and I seem to have some mobility issues preventing me from getting my skis turned across the hill completely while keeping my chest and hips facing downhill. I am tremendously inflexible especially in the hips. Is that an issue sometimes.

A second question does type of ski make a difference. I would think a straighter sidecut ski would be easier than a deep sidecut ski.

Pivot slips are notoriously hard to learn.

Skis
It's not your skis. Pivot slips can be done with sharp race slaloms with a very short turn radius and a strong tendency to grab an edge and turn. You'll need to learn to control your skis, whatever their shape, so they stay flat and parallel as you rotate them on the snow.

Terrain
Where you do the task matters. It's hard to do pivot slips on flat terrain because momentum doesn't provide much help. It's easier with some pitch. It's harder to do them on deep soft wet snow that gets pushed downhill and eventually builds up a wall below the skis. It's easier to do them on hard snow and even on ice.

Flexibility for the rotation of the legs in the hip sockets
Your inflexibility may not be the issue stopping you from being able to do pivot slips. It may be the unfamiliarity of the movement pattern. This movement of the legs separate from the upper body is not used in other sports. You may be flexible enough to do this movement without spending a season in the gym stretching your hips. The unfamiliarity of the separation between upper body and lower body certainly makes this maneuver difficult for many people. You could use a trainer to walk you through the movement pattern.

Release
Also, the release matters and needs to be practiced, once you get the rotation of the legs separate from the upper body going. I'm happy to see the PSIA Matrix video above shows both an extension release and a flexion release being used in their models. They both work, and they work when blended as well.

Body Centered between the skis
You need to keep your body balanced between the two skis, not uphill of them as many skiers do when their skis point across the hill.

Body Centered over the skis
If you are habitually aft over the tails of your skis, then even once you get the separation and rotation working and the release working, you will get forbidden travel. Pivot slips are supposed to take you straight down the hill without any left-right travel. So there's that too.

If you are serious about doing pivot slips, find someone to work with you who already knows how to do them and who has some experience teaching adults this drill. Then realize it may take repeated tries over the season to get them working. Doing pivot slips helps get the important things listed above dialed in so you can use them in regular turns. Learning them is definitely worth doing.

 

[KevinF]

The girl, the last skier, did the first two ok.

FYI, that “girl” is Robin Barnes. I’m pretty sure she can do pivot slips better than most of us.

 

[Seldomski]

When I have done pivot slips in lessons in the past, I tried to keep my feet together. I did not realize that there was supposed to be a tip lead change in the drill.

 

[Skisailor]

When I have done pivot slips in lessons in the past, I tried to keep my feet together. I did not realize that there was supposed to be a tip lead change in the drill.

Without tip lead, it would be impossible to do them without a hip rotation. The tip lead occurs as a natural consequence of turning the femurs in the hip socket. If you have no tip lead, you are likely not turning your legs but are instead accomplishing the rotation in your spinal column.

 

[Coach13]

FYI, that “girl” is Robin Barnes. I’m pretty sure she can do pivot slips better than most of us.

Lol. Maybe if Robin Barnes and Deb Armstrong would tune in here for great advice and work a little harder at their craft, they would become accomplished skiers one day!

 

[razie]

FYI, that “girl” is Robin Barnes. I’m pretty sure she can do pivot slips better than most of us.

No doubt. I think I didn't like that she was moving across the hill, so I took some points off for that.

Why don't they make these demos as good as possible, from a technical perspective? I create imperfect demos too, sometimes on purpose, to show this or that issue, but they come with commentary, explaining what's different/wrong and what it does...

The others in that video are doing a lazy version and/or have some hip mobility issues... is this meant as a "standard" or visual aid? What am I to understand from this demo, as a noob skier or prospective instructor? That the shuffle control doesn't matter? That going across the slope is good? That no counter is perfect?

 

[Henry]

As an instructor was coaching me just three days ago, good pivot slips might require developing more tip lead than I generally aim for in free skiing, so as to facilitate maximum separation at the hip joints.

But...is the goal to develop movements that improve your free skiing or to perform the perfect pivot slip? If the latter doesn't help the former, don't do it.

 

[whumber]

Why don't they make these demos as good as possible, from a technical perspective? I create imperfect demos too, sometimes on purpose, to show this or that issue, but they come with commentary, explaining what's different/wrong and what it does...

The others in that video are doing a lazy version and/or have some hip mobility issues... is this meant as a "standard" or visual aid? What am I to understand from this demo, as a noob skier or prospective instructor? That the shuffle control doesn't matter? That going across the slope is good? That no counter is perfect?

FWIW this is what I was going for. Many of the Matrix videos seem like they just did a single take and used whatever video they happened to get rather than trying to give a truly idealized demo for each task. I have no doubt that the skiers in the videos can do everything as close to perfect as possible. Some of the CSIA demo videos are great in that they will include the "ideal" version as well as a few non-ideal examples with commentary on what it wrong. The ones I really like are the ones that show examples of exam candidates doing each task and show what score they received.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I have no complaints about any of those demos.

 

[Seldomski]

Without tip lead, it would be impossible to do them without a hip rotation. The tip lead occurs as a natural consequence of turning the femurs in the hip socket. If you have no tip lead, you are likely not turning your legs but are instead accomplishing the rotation in your spinal column.

Agreed and that is exactly what happened. Just pointing out that some people (like me) may not be smart enough to realize that tip lead change is supposed to happen in this drill. Instructor says - let's do pivot slips. They demo it, but do not really describe what is happening.

I assumed that since I needed to hold back the inside ski in other turns, and this drill looked like a turn, that I should be holding the foot back to keep the feet matched. But I guess this is not really a turn at all?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Agreed and that is exactly what happened. Just pointing out that some people (like me) may not be smart enough to realize that tip lead change is supposed to happen in this drill. Instructor says - let's do pivot slips. They demo it, but do not really describe what is happening.

I assumed that since I needed to hold back the inside ski in other turns, and this drill looked like a turn, that I should be holding the foot back to keep the feet matched. But I guess this is not really a turn at all?

It is definitely not a turn. The skier doesn't travel left and right along a circular path. It's a fancy side-slip.

 

[Magi]

Agreed and that is exactly what happened. Just pointing out that some people (like me) may not be smart enough to realize that tip lead change is supposed to happen in this drill. Instructor says - let's do pivot slips. They demo it, but do not really describe what is happening.

I assumed that since I needed to hold back the inside ski in other turns, and this drill looked like a turn, that I should be holding the foot back to keep the feet matched. But I guess this is not really a turn at all?

"Holding the feet back" and "keeping the feet matched" are different things.

As an example:

• Hold both arms out straight in front of you, then flex your wrists "Back" toward your elbows - your hands are now your virtual "Feet".
• Both "feet" are pointed straight up at the sky, and are "even", if you are traveling in the direction of your feet.
• Now turn both your hands in the same direction (right or left, doesn't matter).
• Imagine that you are traveling in the direction your hands now point - one of your hands is now "behind" the other.
• This "lead" is the natural consequence of turning in the hip/shoulder socket.

Tip lead that arises from turning the femurs in the acetabulum (hip socket) is demanded by biomechanics.
Tip lead that arises from pushing a foot forward (straightening the ankle and bending the knee) puts you even more aft on the ski in question.

So, generally, minimizing tip lead so only the amount created by femur rotation occurs is the goal. "Matching" your feet from an ahead/behind perspective should occur only when you are square to your skis (and that's a moment you pass through in a turn, not a state you live in).

Advice to "hold your feet back" is generally a coaching cue to not lose active dorsiflexion (bending) of the ankle's.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Pivot slip helps to develop understanding of separation, which is essential in almost all GOOD skiing maneuvers.

 

[4ster]

Curious to see what the opinion is on the "official" pivot slip demos

There are many variations of the pivot slip & they can all address/refine particular movements, timing or emphasis in coaching & learning scenarios.
For scored demonstration purposes the pure pivot slip IME should be about isolating the twisting/pivoting/rotational movement of the femurs inside the hip sockets. In the purest form it does not require any vertical extension of the leg joints or pole use, only the ability to regulate the tipping & flattening of the skis via lateral & rotational muscular action of the feet, ankles & legs from a balanced stance.

I still like Ric's from the originally posted video best.
Time stamped here...

 

[oldschoolskier]

What is the practical application for the pivot slip?

Balance and edge feel.

Any type of drill like this highlights errors, the more difficult the terrain or condition or aggressively tune the skis just exaggerate the errors. Done correctly in under any or all of these conditions it will look and feel easy.

Master this skill you will be that much better in almost every other skill.