Pivot slip demo

[Josh Matta]

What pivot slip demo do you like better and why?

A.
B.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I like the top one best. Why?

a. It's the "orthodox" one. Nothing wrong with that; I'm not a rebel just because being a rebel feels good.
b. It's harder to perform because the skier has to control more factors to get it to work. Meeting a challenge is always fun.
c. Being able to control those extra factors gives the skier more tools in the toolbox, thus more ways to control line, which can come in handy in variable conditions on varied terrain. Learning the top one delivers more benefits.

 

[Coach13]

I like the top one best. Why?

a. It's the "orthodox" one. Nothing wrong with that; I'm not a rebel just because being a rebel feels good.
b. It's harder to perform because the skier has to control more factors to get it to work. Meeting a challenge is always fun.
c. Being able to control those extra factors gives the skier more tools in the toolbox, thus more ways to control line, which can come in handy in variable conditions on varied terrain. Learning the top one delivers more benefits.

I agree, but both are great examples.

 

[mdf]

I'll repeat what I said in the other thread.
The top one is better in general. But if you are having skiers without enough separation work on edge feel, the second would be easier for them to emulate.
I think orthodox PSIA pivot slips are mostly about managing separation at the correct joint, and only secondarily about managing edge angle.

Josh said "you never want that much hip rotation". Is that really true? Agree for normal turning, but.... If you did a stivot (or just a hockey stop) wouldn't you want your hip rotated to be in a stronger position to resist a suddenly-applied load?

 

[Ken_R]

I though this was about a new Look Pivot binding... carry on

 

[LiquidFeet]

It's not so hard to convert a pivot slip done with hip rotation (the bottom video) to one done with leg rotation (the top video) if you practice the proper movements in boots/no-skis first on a shallow pitch.

--lay a pole down on the snow pointing down the fall line
--straddle the pole, facing downhill
--walk downhill, pointing both feet left then right as if you are doing pivot slips
--allow hips to turn with the feet as much as they want to the first times you do this
--keep the feet straddling the pole as the feet pivot
...This is Key #1 to success in doing orthodox pivot slips without hip rotation.

--disallow hips turning on all subsequent tries; work on as little hip rotation as possible.
...This is Key #2 to success.

--notice that one foot is higher on the hill when they point to the side
--notice that which foot is higher alternates with each pivot; this is the inside foot of the pivot
--focus on pulling that downhill foot uphill as you pivot it, which moves the uphill ski above the CoM
...This is Key #3. Most people don't think much about this element and let it happen passively, but IMO doing it consciously makes mastering real pivot slips so much easier.

Now do it with skis on. You know what to do. It takes time to get it right. Proper balancing will send you straight down the fall line without left-right travel, with hips facing downhill as much as your ROM will allow. Add pole plants if you want more complexity.

Add flex and extend if you like, but you don't need any extension making the body taller if you pull that foot uphill. Doing the uphill pull is the equivalent of a flexion release in a real turn. A flexion release keeps the body low between turns, as opposed to an extension release which makes it taller.

I believe both will pass a LIII certification exam. Have I got that right @Josh Matta, @Erik Timmerman?

 

[ForeverSki]

To develop this skill, is the progression side slip -> falling leaf -> pivot slip? What is the minimum pitch you need to practice this progression?

 

[Chris V.]

--lay a pole down on the snow pointing down the fall line
--straddle the pole, facing downhill
--walk downhill, pointing both feet left then right as if you are doing pivot slips
--allow hips to turn with the feet as much as they want to the first times you do this
--keep the feet straddling the pole as the feet pivot
...This is Key #1 to success in doing orthodox pivot slips without hip rotation.

As an instructor was coaching me just three days ago, good pivot slips might require developing more tip lead than I generally aim for in free skiing, so as to facilitate maximum separation at the hip joints.

Also, staying well flexed facilitates range of motion in creating that separation.

 

[Chris V.]

To develop this skill, is the progression side slip -> falling leaf -> pivot slip? What is the minimum pitch you need to practice this progression?

Most would start with straight-down-the-hill side slips, and put hockey stops in the middle of the progression. Note that the hockey stops need to be done by traveling in a straight line down the hill to a stop. Many, many people actually do a hook slide (traveling laterally across the hill at the end), which won't put you on the right path.

You do need enough pitch to develop enough momentum to keep moving throughout--but as with many drills, slower might actually be more challenging and require refining precision of movements.

 

[cantunamunch]

I though this was about a new Look Pivot binding... carry on

In lingerie? I like it!

 

[razie]

The second one is pretty bad, especially the first runs, way too much upper body lack of discipline... although from a stance and shuffle discipline and ski control, it is much better...

The demos in the first vid are not that bad upper body-wise, but a very lazy shuffle (the inside ankle is sooo open) and even with the massive shuffle, there is just some medium hip awareness (they rotate the hips). Also, the ski control is lazy, skis are barely parallel (section filmed from the top). Hip-wise, the blue jacket seems a little better? It's almost like the demo is the shuffle not the pivot slips or the braquage... while for me, controlling that shuffle is paramount, so there's my bias.

Also, hip discipline and range of motion, where the hips do not rotate much, is important - but I know that takes some hip mobility and discipline, especially while controlling the shuffle. But without hip, foot and stance discipline, this drill is not that useful, for me...

I really need to see myself do it, for a reality check

 

[Josh Matta]

Most would start with straight-down-the-hill side slips, and put hockey stops in the middle of the progression. Note that the hockey stops need to be done by traveling in a straight line down the hill to a stop. Many, many people actually do a hook slide (traveling laterally across the hill at the end), which won't put you on the right path.

You do need enough pitch to develop enough momentum to keep moving throughout--but as with many drills, slower might actually be more challenging and require refining precision of movements.

assuming someone has upper lower body seperation coming from the hip socket...

I go falling leaf both ways
straight down the hill sideslips....most people can not do straight down the hill right off the bat because they lack for and aft balance skills
Fancy Falling leaf
Then Pivot slips.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I'd fail the lower guy.

 

[Josh Matta]

same. why does the USSA have this as their official demo.

 

[teejaywhy]

What is the practical application for the pivot slip?

 

[LiquidFeet]

What is the practical application for the pivot slip?

Practical application? Oh my. With a little tweaking, pivot slips can morph into very short radius turns.

The active rotary of the skis/feet/legs in pivot slips without hip/upper body rotation comes in handy in all kinds of situations. The lack of upper body rotation keeps you stable, whereas the upper body will want to keep rotating if you allow it to turn with the skis so keeping it quiet is a major accomplishment. If your upper body keeps rotating even a little once your turn is done, you are done.

So these super short rotarized turns without upper body rotation are useful on hard snow that's steepish - when you want to ski in a narrow corridor without mach schnell speed. In other words, you can learn to make speed-controlling short turns down the fall line on groomed black diamonds that are skied off. They are also useful if you want to go slow in hard bumps (the ones I'm familiar with here in NE) straight down the fall line. You can actually ski a more-or-less direct line in bumps at a glacial pace, if you've got pivot slips in your tool box, then increase speed at will. If you like to travel along in the ribbon of soft shavings ("snow") at the side of the trail once the trail is skied off and want to slow that travel down, you can use super short turns there too.

I'm sure others will chime in with other reasons to get pivot slips in your repertoire. Backwards pivot slips? Not so useful, but fun anyway.

 

[razie]

What is the practical application for the pivot slip?

Separation.

 

[Josh Matta]

What is the practical application for the pivot slip?

As a drill

Separation
for and aft balance/pressure control.


They can also be a legit tactical choices in many situations in the all mountain skiing. It would never be a go to but there are many time I use a couple or near pivot slips to be able to negotiate tight spots.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

The pivot slip is one of the least interesting tools that I use on a daily basis. On days when the only choice is a pivot slip drill down most slopes I head home. The pivot slip works on most ice surfaces except rock impregnated ice.

 

[teejaywhy]

Separation?... between upper and lower body?