Non-carving adults learning to carve arc-to-arc

[James]

Yes, when both skis are flat, pulling the new inside foot backwards will start a turn. So will turning the upper body to point in the new turn's direction ahead of the skis. But surely you guys are not implying those movements would start a carved (arc-to-arc) turn. Are you?

Well it was the patient part being addressed. But you could acquire an edge pretty quickly then wait. Few have that much patience.
If someone can't do railroad tracks, they'll likely never do arc to arc. I would start there and uphill arcs, traverse arcs.

 

[Mike King]

My approach:

• Start with skating, focusing on rolling the knee in and down to establish a platform against which the student can push. I take their poles away for this so that they have to develop the lower leg tipping necessary to establish edge. After they can effectively roll onto the edge, then we progress to the next step.
• J turns. Starting at an angle to the fall line, I have the student take the same mechanics of tipping the lower leg to engage the ski and ride the edge all the way up hill. I have them examine the track their ski edge leaves to see if it is an arc or a smear. We work these until they can repeatedly obtain a carve all the way uphill.
• Once they've achieved both of these results, it's onto linking the turns. All they have to do is roll the knees in and down into the next turn.

Mike

 

[Kneale Brownson]

LF: I spend a fair amount of time describing how things feel to me in my boots and in my muscles and on movements on skis that highlight those sensations. I do a fair amount of "follow me" skiing and then talking about what they felt and what they had to do that was different from their "normal" activity.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I find this discussion really interesting.

--Two (I think) instructors have talked about using skate progressions to teach arc-to-arc carving.
--Several hers others have talked about tipping both feet/lower legs to get RR Tracks going first, then moving to completed turns.
--Then there are the outliers with other ways of approaching the task of teaching this thing.
--Plus, there's the difference between teaching people to go cold-turkey on the rotation (which negates the arc-to-arc carve) vs progressively reducing it till it's gone.

I am assuming all of these work.

More?
--How about how you instructors move the initial carver to steeper terrain, and/or to more completed/round turns, and how you keep them from reverting to the handy-dandy embedded rotation when facing higher levels of gravitational pull?
--Or how you help them not revert to rotating the skis when facing the task of tipping them onto new (downhill) edges above the fall line, and w-a-i-t-i-n-g for the skis to turn to point downhill on their own?

Same question to people who aren't instructors who learned to do this ... either on your own or with the guidance of instructional help. What worked for you?

 

[Corgski]

Probably not practical in the context of a lesson but personally I found working through the basics of tipping, weight transfer and counterbalancing on land (or more specifically basement carpet) to be essential in learning to carve. There is just too much happening at the same time when on snow to work through the subtleties of each movement. Counterbalancing has not been emphasized in this discussion but at low speeds I don't know how else one can get the edge angles one needs to get the desired turn. It does require a bit of time in front of a mirror to get the separation at the hip right but is not particularly difficult. It is also interesting in the limiting case of a zero speed carve to experience how counterbalancing can control where one's base of support is. Dryland training can be hard on the knees though, best to take it in small doses. I guess if one is more comfortable with a bit more speed than I was, early focus on angulation is not necessary.

Ski choice can help, some recreational slaloms can be very easy going and can give you a carved turn almost for free. A bit of angulation on a short radius ski can give one quite a decent turn without too much speed or effort.

 

[Wendy]

Same question to people who aren't instructors who learned to do this ... either on your own or with the guidance of instructional help. What worked for you?

I had the most success by counting "1-2-3" as I turned across the fall line, and then again "1-2-3" as I released the edge and let the skis move down the fall line before engaging the other edge. This helped instill patience and also gave the beautiful impression of waltzing with the mountain.

Of course, by following an instructor in her tracks, the same patience can first be introduced. But the counting helped build it into muscle memory.

 

[Marker]

Being somewhat large, my skis have longer turn radii. I started this year on working to tip just my feet and then letting the skis and my body respond to the developing forces. I find I have to be verrrry patient to avoid turning my feet. This is fine on early morning wide-open not-too-steep slopes, but boy do I pick up speed! I've never had an instructor discuss it with me. I think they were too busy cleaning up my other problems! When the trails are crowded it is very hard to be patient and wait for the carved turn. I'm thinking I need to get some new all-mtn daily driver skis with shorter turn radius. @Wendy I like the counting suggestion, I'll have to try it.

 

[Mendieta]

• J turns. Starting at an angle to the fall line, I have the student take the same mechanics of tipping the lower leg to engage the ski and ride the edge all the way up hill. I have them examine the track their ski edge leaves to see if it is an arc or a smear. We work these until they can repeatedly obtain a carve all the way uphill.

Yes, as a skier, not the skating you mentioned as a first step, but the J-Turns were spectacularly good in showing me how it feels. It was a static but proper first carve, and it feel like a billion dollars. With an instructor. Next was RR tracks, great at linking turns in mild terrain and trusting that you can tip and engage.

The other thing is equipment. Moving at the time from a "confidence inspiring" mid-fat into a forgiving but effective (narrow) carver (Head Rally) was game changing.

(Having said that, and for the record, my current carving is mediocre at best, which doesn't break my heart, at all. I ski for fun )

 

[Seldomski]

I suggest a modification to definition of carving to differentiate it from RR tracks. I think beyond just tips following tails, there must also be sufficient angle/pressure to bend the ski. IMO feeling the ski bend is a part of carving whereas RR tracks are more about riding the sidecut. Yes there is some bend to the ski, but it is not the dominant sensation for RR tracks. RR tracks feels like acceleration downhill and a 'locked in' sensation to turn at the radius of the ski sidecut.

Some helpful things for me (after I could do RR) to carve:
-Skating downhill on a very mellow, almost flat green
-White pass turns. These seem to force the patience required to prevent steering/pivoting the top of the turn

Both of these drills force weight transfer onto the new outside ski very early, followed by tipping/rolling.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
Some helpful things for me (after I could do RR) to carve:
-Skating downhill on a very mellow, almost flat green
-White pass turns. These seem to force the patience required to prevent steering/pivoting the top of the turn

Both of these drills force weight transfer onto the new outside ski very early, followed by tipping/rolling.

Could you be talking about using "Outside Ski turns," where you lift the new inside ski (downhill ski) into the air at turn start and ride the big toe edge of that new outside ski (uphill ski) through the top half of the turn to the fall line?

In White Pass turns, the skier tips the new inside ski (downhill ski) onto its little toe edge and rides that edge through the top of the turn to the fall line, with the new outside ski (uphill ski) in the air. It's interesting that you used them as part of the pathway to carving on the outside ski.

Just trying to understand this unusual approach to forcing weight transfer onto the new outside ski early.

 

[Seldomski]

@LiquidFeet - yes white pass turns, like these:


My last sentence after rereading doesn't make sense... with white pass you end turn with all weight on outside ski, lift the old inside. Start the turn with all pressure on the new inside ski. So you are rolling from big to little toe on one ski. If you are teaching someone this first time, I think you would start on just doing one of them before linking together.

I don't think you can smear the transition of a white pass, or at least it feels like a really bad idea. Or maybe you can? Anyway, if you are doing them for first time, I don't think many would feel comfortable trying to pivot the ski. For me I am concentrating only on the tipping motion, not rotary.

 

[James]

White Pass turns? I'n White Pass turns, the skier tips the new inside ski (downhill ski) onto its little toe edge and rides that edge through the top of the turn to the fall line, with the new outside ski (uphill ski) in the air. White Pass turns are difficult to do. It's interesting that you used them as part of the pathway to carving on the outside ski.

Or could you be talking about using "Outside Ski turns," where you lift the new inside ski (downhill ski) at turn start and ride the big toe edge of that new outside ski (uphill ski) through the top half of the turn to the fall line? Just trying to understand this unusual approach to forcing weight transfer onto the new outside ski early.

Jonathan Ballou at 5:30 discusses pretty much your question.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Well, I never expected to hear that instructors are introducing carving to people by having them do White Pass turns. Yup, muscularly rotating the skis when you're on only one ski is difficult. (You can skid, though.... we had a nice long thread on this issue last season.)

This exercise could just as easily be done on the new outside ski though, which eliminates the angst associated with moving the whole body across the new inside ski and balancing on its outside edge till the fall line.

Love learning something new.

How about cowboy turns? Anyone use those? A super-wide stance makes it difficult to rotate the skis too.

 

[James]

How about cowboy turns? Anyone use those? A super-wide stance makes it difficult to rotate the skis too.

Actually we used to use them for rotation/ankle movement.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Really?

Actually we used to use them for rotation/ankle movement.

Say more... curious. Femur rotation is difficult if your legs are that far apart. Are you talking about the small ROM available from foot rotation at the ankle?

 

[Wendy]

How about cowboy turns? Anyone use those? A super-wide stance makes it difficult to rotate the skis too.

Yup, in a race clinic. They are good for getting the feel of a nice clean carve.

We not focused on angulation from the feet/ ankle movement....I don’t recall any focus on femur rotation.

 

[Seldomski]

Could just as easily be the new outside ski though, which eliminates the angst associated with moving the whole body across the new inside ski and balancing on its outside edge till the fall line.

Well what the instructor did was show both ways and have us do each. So, do as you suggest above, which is pick up old outside ski, starting on old inside ski, rolling from inside edge to outside. Basically doing everything on the opposite leg of the white pass.

But, think about how that works exactly. How do you perform the opposite of a white pass? How do you get on the old inside ski? You need to have it pulled back to the right place so you can stand on it and and stand on that little toe edge. If you are just learning to carve, you probably don't have good control of the inside ski and will feel very uncomfortable trying to stand on it. Likely it is too far forward. So that is a pretty big ask itself.

The intermediate student has good control of the old outside ski and can stand on that at will. So what student will do is likely complete a turn and do a big traverse to get the old inside ski in the right place, then do the next turn. That traverse is a problem to get the sensation of linked carved turns. Big traverse in a white pass is not as big of a deal IMO. I could feel the 'a-ha' moment in the white pass vs. doing the opposite of the white pass.

I think the white pass is actually easier to achieve and pathway to linked carve turns. It forces you to concentrate on and control the new inside ski - which was definitely a big problem for me. Intermediate-ish students are used to thinking only about the outside ski.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Students in boots with too much volume will have difficulty with White Pass turns. Same thing for un-treated or poorly treated alignment issues. Ask me how I know.

 

[Seldomski]

Is it possible to do 'clean' arc to arc carved turns if your boots are terrible? Maybe so in some snow conditions (slush, powder, hero snow), but not on very firm or ice when you must be very precise?

 

[oldschoolskier]

Several years ago I taught at a local hill (pimple actually), and did the school groups. What i did beyond the standard canned lesson was to get them to roll left and right (similar to your earlier post LF).

This like it or not is simple carving and modern equipment lets you do this easily. The benefit is it encourages you to ski. The draw back is same said skier thinks they are better than they really are.

Before anyone points out is is simple stuff, yes it is, all the more advanced actions still need to be learned, but its the start (and hook to keep them coming back). Think of Bob’s PSIA man.

Funny thing learning this simple thing made all of
the other basic skill easier to learn (remember I had less than 1 - 2 hour session with any group) and cut them loose. Cattle teaching at its best.