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dbostedo

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I don't think "lifting the toes" is actually dorsiflextion.

Depends on what you mean by "lifting the toes". Sitting with my feet flat on the floor, I can raise just my toes by flexing at the ball of my foot. That wouldn't be dorsiflexion. But I can also lift my toes by keeping my foot straight and lifting everything leaving just my heels on the ground. That would be dorsiflexion.

The same applies standing, but now you can also dorsiflex by moving your shins (and knees) forward, rather than lifting your feet so that you're only on your heels.
 

Kneale Brownson

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I don't think "lifting the toes" is actually dorsiflextion. Seems to me the sole of the foot has to go towards the shin to be dorsiflextion.

Or the shin has to move closer to the sole?

As you noted, when one raises the toes, the whole leg becomes involved through tensioning. I don't want tensioning to stiffen my leg to the point its movement may be restricted.
 

James

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The same applies standing, but now you can also dorsiflex by moving your shins (and knees) forward, rather than lifting your feet so that you're only on your heels.
Yes, this has been the subject of several posts now. :ogcool:

Most instructors who talk about "dorsiflextion" view "moving the shin towards the foot" as some sort of neanderthal chopping down a tree move. Ie, grossly inept and clumsy. (Though the Neanderthal with an axe may be the Paul Bunyon of his day.)
They think you lift the foot, and pull the whole body to your toes, plus flex the boot. It's always struck me as wrong and delusional. Try and flex a ski boot next time you put one on. Sitting in a chair, dorsiflex the foot. Not much flexing of the boot available. Especially a cold plug boot.


We probably should make these posts on dorsiflextion it's own thread, but I can't stomach going back right now and figuring it out. Maybe later.
 
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JESinstr

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I don't think "lifting the toes" is actually dorsiflexion. Seems to me the sole of the foot has to go towards the shin to be dorsiflexion. If you've got weight on your feet and move the ball of the foot off the surface towards the shin, the weight shits to the heel. If you only do one foot some weight also shifts to the other foot. Try it standing, in ski position or not, now.

However, "lifting the toes" activates a bunch of muscles up the leg including some on the medial side of the knee. Don't ask me what, beyond my knowledge. It's more than one. Try that too as you're standing.
So, it does have an effect.

There's no confusion if you don't use terms that have multiple meanings, or just explain which action you want.
For instance,

JESinstr said:
I bring this up because getting the skier to experience dorsiflexion helps establish an arch based stance between the balls of the feet and the heel as well as maintaining shin to boot contact.

Explain that without the word dorsiflexion. What do you actually want people to do?

Well, I think you answered my question by what is in bold above. It's about creating tension awareness in the foot because we are introducing a different way (for many) to dynamically balance. BTW I never use the "D" word with my students.

Thanks for your input and watch your spell checker also in Bold LOL!
 

dbostedo

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"moving the shin towards the foot" ... lift the foot,

I'm surprised anyone thinks those are two different things in terms of muscle/joint movement. Haven't really thought about it though - always seemed to be saying the same thing to me.

The difference is where your weight it, and whether you're moving your body forward to close the ankle, or letting the foot come up. I'd be curious what would happen if I asked a bunch of people to dorsiflex, but don't let the bottom of their foot come off the ground.
 

Tony S

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In order to keep this discussion from devolving into a "discussion" about what a carved turn is, or turning into a "discussion" of the relative value of short radius "carved" turns where the skis brush across the snow, I'd like to limit the discussion to arc-to-arc carved turns with tails following tips.

I'm one of the people who was guilty of bringing up the question of what a carved turn is. It seemed to me that when you're teaching someone to make this kind of a turn, it might be important for you and that person to have a shared vision of the goal. But maybe not. Sorry about that.

Anyway, in a momentary set break from the Tommy and Jimmy Dorsiflexion band, I thought it might be good to remind readers that for for many skiers a - or even THE - primary benefit of learning to carve is reaped ... in deep snow. :eek: At least I believe this. So it seems strange to me that so few of us push back against the commonly expressed notion that it's a skill primarily of interest to groomer skiers.

Easterners tend to fantasize about soft snow but struggle when they encounter the actual beast at any significant depth. This is because a lifetime of skiing on slick groomers has allowed them to spin their skis around any old way whenever they want. Guess what? This doesn't work in pow and crud.

Do instructors use this notion to help will win over the doubting Thomases in their carving groups? Or is that just an energy-sucking buzz kill for the folks who like to think that soft snow is suddenly going to make all difficult things easy?
 

James

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I'm surprised anyone thinks those are two different things in terms of muscle/joint movement. Haven't really thought about it though - always seemed to be saying the same thing to me.
Go play with it and feel it. Very different.
When are you scheduled for your next retraining session? I'll add it to the list?

IMG_6519.JPG


I thought it might be good to remind readers that for for many skiers a - or even THE - primary benefit of learning to carve is reaped ... in deep snow. :eek: At least I believe this. So it seems strange to me that so few of us push back against the commonly expressed notion that it's a skill primarily of interest to groomer skiers.
Well I totally agree, but this thread is about arc to arc and it's treated as if it's a different sport. It's why I find this "carving", "arc to arc", obsession as sort of silly. It made sense when shape skis were newish as things were new. How about learn to ski? Carving is part of it.
But, there's plenty of arc to arc, bracing skiers that can't ski pow and hate it. . But, they carve. Some of them used to race

Btw, you and @mdf were blaming your "bad habits" on straight skis. Not buying it.
They were just bad habits.
 

mdf

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Btw, you and @mdf were blaming your "bad habits" on straight skis. Not buying it.
They were just bad habits.
Oh, that is certainly true. But shaped skis changed expectations (and made better skiing easier to learn).
 

James

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Oh, that is certainly true. But shaped skis changed expectations (and made better skiing easier to learn).
The big leap came when shaped and much shorter. For one thing, you could work on a carve at slower speeds and much less space.
 

Tony S

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Btw, you and @mdf were blaming your "bad habits" on straight skis. Not buying it.They were just bad habits.

Oh, I'm a freaking virtuoso when it comes to bad habit blame.

Anyway, they were MY bad habits and I love then like family.
 

dbostedo

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Go play with it and feel it. Very different.

I've definitely played with it a bunch. It's part of the whole, "pull your feet back" versus "close your ankle" versus "lift your toes" practice of getting a backseat skier more forward. It's something that I've worked a lot at - on skis, and a little bit off.
 

geepers

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Anybody else have thoughts on the value or even the possibility of teaching adult non-racers to carve (tails following tips)?

If not essential I'd say it is highly desirable.

1. It's fun! Even in Western Canada where I ski most there are lots of firm snow days. Fresh pow is #1 however carving up some firm groomers is up there with the best the ski world has to offer.

2. It hones edging skills and balance. Just as there are situations where rotary is required (e.g. steeps), there are situations where rotary won't work (e.g. crud, heavy pow) as @Tony S pointed out.

Seems kids do learn very quickly to hold an edge in turn.Limited sample but my two kids both learnt to hold an edge in a turn with only modest help. For the eldest it happened when he was around 10 and moved from kids to small adult boots/skis. Without any instruction he adopted that racing tuck of the young gate runners and about the only thing we saw of him that ski vac was a pair of gently snaking parallel lines disappearing into the distance. For the younger one it happened when he was 9. He was struggling a bit on he hard snow that vac. The hire kids skis were blunt, terrible condition. He wasn't tall enough for the shortest men's skis but did fit the shortest lady skis. 10 minutes later he was ripping it. The hardest thing about the whole process was getting a 9 y/o boy to try out skis with pink flowers on the artwork.

Btw, you and @mdf were blaming your "bad habits" on straight skis. Not buying it.
They were just bad habits.

There's bad habits. And then there's things that are no longer necessary to do on the new skis.

The last lesson I had on the old straights was around 1986. Was a late adopter of shaped skis (1999) and the first lesson on them was 2006. Figured it might be a good idea to see what the new equipment could do. As that instructor pointed out I knew how to ski but wasted all that energy old style when the new skis will do it so much easier. He was absolutely correct and it made a huge difference to my ski day. Made it a point to take lessons ever since.
 

James

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The last lesson I had on the old straights was around 1986. Was a late adopter of shaped skis (1999) and the first lesson on them was 2006. Figured it might be a good idea to see what the new equipment could do. As that instructor pointed out I knew how to ski but wasted all that energy old style when the new skis will do it so much easier. He was absolutely correct and it made a huge difference to my ski day. Made it a point to take lessons ever since.
True, but couldn't you have used some lessons between 1986 and 1999? Let's just not pretend good efficient skiers didn't exist till shape skis came along.
1999 wasn't really late to start cheating. I bought a straight ski in '96.
 

geepers

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True, but couldn't you have used some lessons between 1986 and 1999? Let's just not pretend good efficient skiers didn't exist till shape skis came along.
1999 wasn't really late to start cheating. I bought a straight ski in '96.

Absolutely would have been better to take some lessons between 1986 and 2006. But, hey, was happy enough with the situation at the time. No dissatisfaction, no vision of what could be == no reason to change.

Maybe there was good efficient skiing on straights. Those things were still a bear to manage - how many 60+ skiers did we see out on the hill? Used to be in Australia that 65+ were given season passes for a $15 admin fee. That stopped because so many kept skiing. (That discount is for 80+ now).

Sure, it's not all down to shaped skis - the more numerous, healthier, retirement-home-be-damned baby boomers played a part. However I well remember the 1st run on some Rossi compacts. About 20 seconds to adapt. Couldn't believe how responsive they were.
 

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