Non-carving adults learning to carve arc-to-arc

[François Pugh]

Same question to people who aren't instructors who learned to do this ... either on your own or with the guidance of instructional help. What worked for you?

It's been so long that I'm not sure I remember correctly. I do remember trying my best to imitate our national WC winning DH racers in making the cleanest possible turns, not allowing the skis to move sideways and throwing up the minimum amount of snow, as per my surrogate instructors (CBC commentators on the televised races). I also remember taking a lesson concentrating on not letting the tips drift during the first half of the turn, and in the second half of the lesson noticing how I had corrected the unwanted tip drift and now had to work on preventing tail drift at the end of the turn, but that was on much straighter skis.

I also recall once I figured out how skis worked and what a critical angle was, that it became a much easier task.

Intent was also very important to me, the intent being to make a clean cut in the snow with my curved knife, a.k.a. decambered sharp metal edged ski, starting the (clean) cut at the tip and working it back to the tails until the whole ski was engaged and then continuing the cut.

 

[Tony S]

Same question to people who aren't instructors who learned to do this ... either on your own or with the guidance of instructional help. What worked for you?

And (piling on), How do you know you learned to do it? How do you know "it" worked? How do we know it worked?

(Among instructors it may or may not be safe to assume that participants in the seminar can do what they say they can. Won't go there now. Among non-instructors it's definitely not safe to assume. I'm not making a moral judgment; I'm just pointing out that when you open the discussion up to us civilians you introduce more potentially confusing facets to the conversation.)

 

[geepers]

Unlike @François Pugh I learnt pure carving as a conscious activity only recently. I would have carved before that time however it wasn't a conscious thing and I wasn't seeking to develop the technique.

Key points for me:
1. RR.

Instructor at the time called them snakey hip turns and we practiced them on the cat tracks to/from lifts.
Subsequently learnt RR initiated by tipping of feet/ankles instead of initiated from hips.
It's pure carving but at a very modest level.​

2. Patience.

Like RR but with balance predominantly over the outside ski and wait patiently for that ski to come across the falline before inclining inside. That waiting until the fall line was a drill although a few of us in that lesson didn't realise at the time. Spent about 3 days skiing at ridiculous speeds developing 'patience'.
By this point turns were pure carved (tail following tip, a real feeling of lateral stability from a solidly engaged edge) but lacked performance. Basically rail 'n ride. Relevant to the point from @Seldomski re bending.​

3. Inside leg

As in correct positioning for separation, balance and getting it out of the way to increase inclination.
This involved a considerable number of drills, adjustments and a lot of mileage. Be hard put to say any one of them was unnecessary however a stand-out was white pass turns which I intensely disliked at 1st. They teach patience against moving inside too early, assist with inside foot placement, tip lead, fore/aft balance whilst eliminating early rotary of the outside ski.​

As I haven't worked as an instructor I have virtually no experience teaching pure carving ab initio. I have encountered 2 skiers of many years experience who have not been able to stop rotary movements. One is my wife. She's done lessons with paid professionals and still she rotates those skis. (The good news is that in the few minutes of instruction I'm allowed to provide per season she is now doing nice brushed carved turns - the z turns are no longer!)
The other was a CSIA L2 qualified instructor. Same thing - he couldn't stop those rotary movements.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

LOL. I told my wife for years to allow her feet to turn without allowing her torso to follow until she was facing the trees instead of where she would go next. For years. Then we were on a trip and hit Kirkwood on Ladies Day, which meant a free lesson with a lift ticket. She came back all smiles and said, "He told me the same thing you did!" Ever after, she's had ski-into-counter capabilities. And my moto has become to say/suggest nothing unless asked.

 

[Tony S]

Damn consultants.

 

[James]

You can also just do inrigger turns to start getting a sense of a ski edge. Many people have no idea what happens if you just tip a ski on edge and let it turn you.
Tip one ski on big toe edge, the other ski is in a wide stance flat. It's just for support. You do this on gentle green. Start either facing downhill or off depending on pitch. Just ride that edge. Then switch.

You can't pass go and collect $200 till you can actually do it and not twist the ski. Most won't get the $200. (Have Monopoly money handy.)

If that fails, go back to a wedge. Edge lock the outside ski. Do one turn up to a stop. Do the other side. Then try to link two. Warren Witherell had like half a dozen variations on those in his 1992 book as I recall.

Really?

Say more... curious. Femur rotation is difficult if your legs are that far apart. Are you talking about the small ROM available from foot rotation at the ankle?

Yes. I recall doing Cowboy Turns on fairly steep terrain. Certainly wasn't for carving. It's not hard to turn/steer when wide. It may be harder, but you're low, bent over a little.

Since your feet are so wide apart, you have to, (well it's much better to, but there's always some way around things), flatten the ski to release into the new turn. This can be ankle and lower leg. You'll also have to move some towards the new turn. Once you get those concepts they're pretty easy.
So thinking back, I'd say it was learning release mostly for me even though it was supposed to be about steering both skis.
Don't know when these became about tipping/carving?

Here, found this from a 1996 psia-nw L2 Study Guide. This is why we did them, and it was a L2 prep clinic iirc. I don't recall doing lots of extension. (Geez, back when manuals had more content than perfume. Wish we'd do more like this now. I see Weems was the Technical Editor)

--------------------------
Simultaneous Steering: Cowboy Turns

Now use the simultaneous steering from the hockey slides to introduce cowboy turns.

Describe the bowlegged appearance of a cowboy’s legs. Explain that the goal is to make your legs look bowlegged as you start the turn by actively tipping your inside knee down the hill.

2. Ski toward your group, sliding across the hill with your weight distributed equally over both feet.

2. Ask the group to focus on what you do with the inside knee during the turn.

3. As you extend, aggressively tip your inside knee toward the intended turn while twisting both feet. This will steer both skis toward the next turn without needing a wedge. The vertical extension helps flatten the skis and release the edges, making them easier to steer.

4. Repeat the demonstration in one turn going away from the group.

5. Have your group try the exer- cise one at a time, first in one direction, then the other.

6. When everyone has successfully made a cowboy turn, have them link a series of these turns to- gether in a practice segment. Continue to emphasize active flexion and extension.

Sometimes, even after you’ve in- troduced your students to hockey slides and cowboy turns, they still have difficulty with simultaneous steering—resulting in a persistent wedge during turn initiation (although it may be fairly small). The root of the problem may be the shape of the turn. If the initia- tion is rushed, or the turn itself too small, students may feel that the only way they can make this turn is to make a wedge as they start the turn. Develop more open, medium– sized turns by teaching patience turns.
--------------------- Pg. 71-----------
https://www.psia-nw.org/wp-content/uploads/PSIA_Alpine_Level2_SG.pdf

 

[JESinstr]

Although many have mentioned the movement patterns, I have yet to see the analogy to pedaling a bike. But instead of one leg getting actively shorter while the other is getting actively longer , the outside leg is getting actively stronger.

Also tons of garlands then on to J turns.

 

[graham418]

I don't know what people here think of these videos. Deb Armstrong is , among other things, a U10 coach. Her videos are oriented towards kids teaching, but it translates to adult learning as well, I think

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I had forgotten Debbie's poles/hands on knees for developing carving. She used that in a clinic I attended with her in Michigan maybe 15-18 years ago.

That was when she was on the PSIA Alpine (demo) team and gave clinics all over the country besides at the National Academy.

Hand on waist, other arm extended is a Schlopy drill after the ski racer.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I spent an afternoon skiing with Deb Armstrong at Big Sky this April (PSIA National Academy). She's a powerhouse intensely focused on her students, whether kids or adults. At her home mountain, she trains instructors, teaches adult lessons from line-up, has her own clients, and even does the occasional beginner group lesson. Her goal is to keep herself active at all levels, so she can read her clients.

Deb Armstrong is a great teacher. And FUN!

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Lot of skiing in her background. She grew up in Breckenridge, where her parents were both on the ski school staff. I think they were Olin reps because they named her brother Olin.

 

[Tony S]

Although many have mentioned the movement patterns, I have yet to see the analogy to pedaling a bike. But instead of one leg getting actively shorter while the other is getting actively longer , the outside leg is getting actively stronger.

.

To me it seems less like pedaling than like coasting around a series of sharp bends, alternating which foot is down (outside) and which is up.

 

[Suzski]

I don't know what people here think of these videos. Deb Armstrong is , among other things, a U10 coach. Her videos are oriented towards kids teaching, but it translates to adult learning as well, I think
]

I adore Deb Armstrong. I've gotten more out of her videos than any other practitioner's. Perhaps it means I need things explained clearly and simply.

 

[Suzski]

Probably not practical in the context of a lesson but personally I found working through the basics of tipping, weight transfer and counterbalancing on land (or more specifically basement carpet) to be essential in learning to carve. There is just too much happening at the same time when on snow to work through the subtleties of each movement. Counterbalancing has not been emphasized in this discussion but at low speeds I don't know how else one can get the edge angles one needs to get the desired turn. It does require a bit of time in front of a mirror to get the separation at the hip right but is not particularly difficult. It is also interesting in the limiting case of a zero speed carve to experience how counterbalancing can control where one's base of support is. Dryland training can be hard on the knees though, best to take it in small doses. I guess if one is more comfortable with a bit more speed than I was, early focus on angulation is not necessary.
.

@Corgski, could you elaborate a bit more on "separation at the hip"? This is something I've been struggling to understand/implement properly.

 

[JESinstr]

To me it seems less like pedaling than like coasting around a series of sharp bends, alternating which foot is down (outside) and which is up.

That will work, at least if we are talking medium to long radius turns. The key is to consciously shorten the inside leg and encourage the outside leg to build higher edge angles with a strong leg position to handle the resultant centripetal force.

In JF's "How to develop new movement patterns", beginning at 4:05 you will see him in a short radius exercise. You can see more of a pedaling action with this and how quickly he creates the centripetal force as his inside ski often lifts off the snow. It amazing how many so called "Advanced" skiers have trouble with this.

 

[LiquidFeet]

For patience training tou can do Octopus turns. They may have different names. Tou need some space and say a blue pitch. If you can find a place that has a knoll, that works well.

You arc uphill, carve sure, if not it's ok. As tou get near the top of where momentum will take you, tou flatten the skis. Tou then essentially wait to go downhill. Not twisting, not doing much. (You don't want to end the arc facing directly up the fall line). As has been disscused before, the turning mechanism is very slight rotoation downhill. Just looking will pretty much do it. (Side slipping and balancing fore or aft will not turn the tips or tails down. This is a persistant myth. Go test it.)

James, this is how you teach non-carving adults to carve arc-to-arc turns?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Being somewhat large, my skis have longer turn radii. I started this year on working to tip just my feet and then letting the skis and my body respond to the developing forces. I find I have to be verrrry patient to avoid turning my feet. This is fine on early morning wide-open not-too-steep slopes, but boy do I pick up speed! I've never had an instructor discuss it with me. I think they were too busy cleaning up my other problems! When the trails are crowded it is very hard to be patient and wait for the carved turn. I'm thinking I need to get some new all-mtn daily driver skis with shorter turn radius. @Wendy I like the counting suggestion, I'll have to try it.

Yes, tails following tips creates quite a bit of speed. Thus the thrill. And thus the need to learn on low-pitch terrain, preferably when it's not crowded, and the need to abort when the speed starts getting dangerous. Bending the skis comes later in the learning process -- that allows the skier to shorten the radius while continuing to have tails follow tips. Brushed carves/scarved turns come later too - this is when the skier uses the same initiation but then gets the skis to turn faster/shorter than tails-following tips allows by manipulating the platform angle to get the skis to be less grippy, and/or adding some foot rotation into the turn. Think of those as advanced dynamic carving skills.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Here's my summary of what's been said so far about adults starting to learn to carve. I probably missed stuff. Please add to it if I did.

Instructors mentioned these things helped adults learn to carve arc-t-arc their first turns.
1. Some instructors start the teaching with tipping both feet/legs/skis, both the same amount and at the same time... without rotating the skis across the snow, and without using the hips. That "without rotating" part is a big deal. W-a-i-t-i-n-g for the skis to turn is a challenge; it calls for patience and allowing the skis to do the work. Also, skiers must recognize that tipping can be done without rotating. Static practice is necessary. A few instructors said that getting the skier to start the tipping with the ankles inside the boots is important; others mentioned tipping from the lower leg. IOW, teaching students to do RR Tracks is the initial goal that leads to full-on carving.
2. One (or two, did I miss someone?) instructors prefer to start the teaching with skating downhill, cleanly edging the propelling ski without any rotation. This makes the new outside foot/ski/leg in charge of the initiation.
3. Two instructors (I think) try to eliminate the persistent habitual rotation, which destroys the carving, by doing one-footed drills of some sort. This may involve picking up one foot/ski (either one) off the snow, or skiing in a wedge with the inside ski flat while the outside ski is edged to make the turn without being rotated. One instructor (me) mentioned using a very wide stance to kill the rotation.
4. Two instructors (I think) attempt to get the skiers to progressively reduce the rotation to zero, rather than working with them to go cold turkey from the start. The rest seem to aim for eliminating the rotation altogether from the get-go.
5. A number of instructors mentioned they start students on beginner terrain in a straight run. The reason is that having tails following tips generates unexpected and significant speed.
6. Only a few said they start the process with students doing a traverse.
7. One or two instructors mentioned teaching adults to use a pedaling motion when beginning to learn to carve.
8. Two instructors mentioned using Deb Armstrong's poles/hands on knees to diagnose clean tipping.
9. Two (I think) mentioned the Schlopy drill, which encourages counter and angulation.

Non-instructors mentioned starting that these helped them start carving:
1. Beginning on gentle terrain helped several people.
2. Rolling ankles and shortening the inside leg helped a few people.
3. Two/three people mentioned counter/counter-balancing and angulation are a must-do for the ski tails to follow the tips
4. Two members mentioned that counting helps the skier to w-a-i-t for the skis to turn, to help with the patience needed to avoid turning the feet
5. One member mentioned that learning to not let tips drift at top half of turn and learning to not let tails drift in second half of turn (old school skis) was essential.
6. One member mentioned that learning what "critical edge angle" was and how to get it mattered.
7. One member mentioned that there are misconceptions about what carving is; some people think they are carving when they aren't. Implication: this fact might impact what's posted in this thread.
8. One member mentioned that inside leg management is a topic for advancing a skier's carving skills; must get it shorter and out of the way

 

[LiquidFeet]

Given all this, how often do instructors here actually teach adults to carve? Race coaches, of course, teach it. But recreational skiers taking a lesson? When does carving seem to be appropriate to teach these folks? What are the benefits?

Non-instructors, are you happy to know how to carve (arc-to-arc, tails following tips)??? It's fast. It's dangerous on a crowded groomer. It's not the go-to approach for off-piste steeps, bumps, trees, and chopped up bowls. So, when and where do you make turns where the tails follow the tips?

There are the advanced type of carved turns that we can argue about being carved or not. For the purposes of this discussion, can we not go there? Let's talk about turns where the tails follow the tips. For shorter radius turns, the skier either bends ze skis, and most likely uses short radius slalom type skis.

 

[James]

James, this is how you teach non-carving adults to carve arc-to-arc turns?

Patience. You get people out of constantly thinking they have to do things. Like twisting the skis. It's amazing how much failure there is in basic railroad tracks. The other thing it's good for is transition. -Doing little, if you're in the right spot.

"Arc to arc" by itself is over rated. One can do arc to arc and still make a fairly lousy turn. You still need all the elements. The counting thing I do for turn shape all the time. I usually ask if they play an instrument.

Number one is getting people out of grossly manipulating the skis. To give them a sense- edge locked arcs. One ski at a time.
The most dramatic improvement I see is uphill arcs or J turns. Can be quite astonishing actually. It disappears quickly, but lots of them can get it there and have quite a good body position.

Being somewhat large, my skis have longer turn radii. I started this year on working to tip just my feet and then letting the skis and my body respond to the developing forces

Get some slalom type skis. Makes it much more fun.