Colorado No, Front Wheel Drive And All-season Tires Isn't Good Enough For Colorado Skiing

[nay]

traction control is not more sopsitcated than a single axle LSD. They are also entirely different things.

LSD mechanically sends power to the wheel with most grip no electronic of gismos just good old soild physics that reacts instantanstly . Traction control uses the brake and electronic throttle to limit power if the tires are slipping, if both tires are slipping the traction control just hits the brakes harder......

With an LSD you can practically hang a FWD car on the front end and pull it though a turn in basically any condition with out one your inside wheel just spins. It helps a ton in snow. I have owned several FWD cars with LSDs both factory and installed all of the LSD have been helical in design. After installing the Quafie Diffs into a 94 Honda Integra the are was a ton easier to go in the snow.

LSD can't bias torque to a wheel with no traction. So if one is gone, both are gone. It's still 1WD at crawl speed, like when you get stuck behind the FWD driver in front if you. Traction control uses the brakes to stop the spinning wheel - it's just a more sophisticated way of managing torque for a differential you can't lock, with different limitations. Using the brakes while trying to rock crawl with a LSD is the same thing, hence the nickname "hydraulic lockers". Neither are worth sh$t in slow speed conditions where all the tires want to spin. I'd rather have the LSD for sure (and have had one in a front 4x4 diff), but the problem is that any single axle drivetrain has awful torque to weight distribution balance. There's just no way around it, and even the best tires have their limits. That's why things that work well at speed may be practically useless in very low speed traction situations.

If you want to test that out, compare a RWD with a locker to 4WD with a locked center diff. Both are effectively two wheel drive (two wheels must lose full traction) but the locked center diff will crush the locked axle diff. That's all about the interaction of torque to weight distribution, which a single axle LSD or locker cannot affect because it is acting on a single plane in relation to weight distribution. The center diff acts along weight distribution instead of across it.

None of this really matters since all cars have electronic traction systems and it would be strange to marry an electronic limited slip system with a mechanical one on the same axle diff (across an actual center diff is a different story).

In any case, it would be nice if people would stop treating high passes like mall parking lots with their equipment choices. It's also generally worth understanding how your vehicle puts torque and traction to the ground. @tball thinks pulling that car was largely his tires, but it wasn't...they were just a component . It was also how his truck puts power to the wheels to maximize traction, especially in low range. It's an inverse of why you can't just put snow tires on a FWD and go anywhere.

 

[nay]

Meh, I had a Trooper LS I really liked with A/T tires on it.. Owned it several years and went through a couple different A/T tires. I've now got an 09 Forester that I've run A/Ts on and some better M+S (there are a few that are decent in snow but most suck). The only thing the truck did better was REALLY DEEP snow. Everything under 6 inches, be it fluff, slush, but ESPECIALLY ICE the Subaru AWD destroys the truck at.

My favorite thing about the truck and the A/T tires is that they looked so much cooler. I searched high and low for a gnarly looking A/T that was better than average on packed and icy but had no luck. If it looks gnarly and knobby it sucks in winter. You can add siping to those A/T tires to get it a little better, but with the same tires Symmetrical AWD>Most regular truck 4WD options.

You are way behind the times on winter traction and off-road tires. They used to be hard compound and absolutely suck, but no longer. Both the BFG AT ko2 and the Goodyear Duratrac are mountain snowflake tires and fully deserve the label. They are other very good winter performance A/T. The Clear Creek County Sherrif's Dept uses the Dutatrac on its patrol vehicles. They are the ones who get to deal with I-70 ice conditions when shoulder season storms pack down into ice and they are first responding.

Symmetrical AWD (a meaningless term outside of cars) is not better than 4WD. I have an AWD center diff on my truck, which has better weight distribution (symmetry) than your Sube, with a wiring upgrade to lock it. I can assure you that 4WD is vastly superior in torque distribution, brakeforce distribution, and control to AWD. I lock the center diff when it gets ugly at road speeds, not the other way around. This is no secret - AWD doesn't even exist in severe use requirements except for newbies who got marketed to and now get to spend a fortune on upgrades.

It's been a nice piece of marketing to try and say AWD>4WD. It is in one singular respect: AWD is completely driver passive, and 4WD requires knowledge and experience to use most effectively.

 

[crgildart]

You are way behind the times on winter traction and off-road tires. They used to be hard compound and absolutely suck, but no longer. Both the BFG AT ko2 and the Goodyear Duratrac are mountain snowflake tires and fully deserve the label. They are other very good winter performance A/T. The Clear Creek County Sherrif's Dept uses the Dutatrac on its patrol vehicles. They are the ones who get to deal with I-70 ice conditions when shoulder season storms pack down into ice and they are first responding.

Symmetrical AWD (a meaningless term outside of cars) is not better than 4WD. I have an AWD center diff on my truck, which has better weight distribution (symmetry) than your Sube, with a wiring upgrade to lock it. I can assure you that 4WD is vastly superior in torque distribution, brakeforce distribution, and control to AWD. I lock the center diff when it gets ugly at road speeds, not the other way around. This is no secret - AWD doesn't even exist in severe use requirements except for newbies who got marketed to and now get to spend a fortune on upgrades.

It's been a nice piece of marketing to try and say AWD>4WD. It is in one singular respect: AWD is completely driver passive, and 4WD requires knowledge and experience to use most effectively.

I don't think we were talking A/T and snowflake.

 

[crgildart]

I don't think we were talking A/T and snowflake.

We certainly weren't talking all kinds of aftermarket mods. Good for you, you spent hours and hours and hours building a monster truck and put soft tires on it for winter Kudos! How high is your center of gravity for ripping switchbacks when the roads are dry? How's the MPG even with the rears only engaged? It's no secret that modern Subarus with good snow tires are hands down the best ski travel vehicles off the lot with no mods. Also better for twelve hour road trips to ski country, smoother, quieter ride that has the grip you need when you get there. The only thing stock trucks might do better is 12" plus assuming the tires are comparable..

 

[oldschoolskier]

I have driven deep snow, hockey rink ice highways and numerous other conditions. 4WD, 2WD front and rear, posi and so on. Just lately I've put winter tires on my all my vehicles and find that they work a little better in the pre-salt conditions that is now the norm since studs aren't allowed in our area which I'd rather use.

However, for those days that winter tires are not enough I still keep tire chains in the car for emergencies. In all the years driving these have saved me on at least 10 occasions and kept me going, better than anyone else on the road.

Know your limits drive safe.

 

[tball]

It's no secret that modern Subarus with good snow tires are hands down the best ski travel vehicles off the lot with no mods.

That's just like saying XYZ is the best ski for everyone, which is also bunk. Everyone has different needs. We also don't buy our vehicles just for skiing. Even with a small quiver of vehicles, my 4x4 truck serves many different duties.

There are many, many places in the great outdoors that a Subaru or any other AWD vehicle just can't go. I don't off-road for its own sake, but will always have an off-road vehicle to get to places to mountain bike, hike and backpack that I otherwise couldn't.

The only thing stock trucks might do better is 12" plus assuming the tires are comparable..

My stock truck is also good for pulling out stuck Subarus, which I've done several times.

Yes, my 4x4 truck with studded Hakapeletias is overkill for most ski days. On powder days, though, I routinely head into the Colorado mountains when the authorities are advising everyone to stay off the roads. On days like that, I want every advantage possible to give me the largest margin of safety possible. (That's why I bought the studded Hakapeletias over the Micheline X-ice tires that I have on another vehicle and really like, for example)

Too hard on brakes!

And, I have to correct that statement for the benefit of the inexperienced snow drivers out there.

You can't hit the brakes too hard in a modern vehicle with anti-lock brakes like that Escalade. Hit them hard and the ABS will slow you as quickly as possible for the traction available. If anything, people generally don't hit the brakes hard enough which is why they are adding "brake assist" to so many vehicles.

 

[Redleg]

 

[crgildart]

You can't hit the brakes too hard in a modern vehicle with anti-lock brakes like that Escalade. Hit them hard and the ABS will slow you as quickly as possible for the traction available. If anything, people generally don't hit the brakes hard enough which is why they are adding "brake assist" to so many vehicles.

You can hit them too early or too late. There are all kinds of mechanisms that have delayed effects, both on and off. Hit them too soon and let off and you can't get them engaged again as quickly. Hit them too late and the problems are obvious.

And yes, the beach and camping trip considerations go in to my tire selection. I don't drive anywhere the Forester won't clear,but I did pick it over the Outback because the 09 Forester had slightly higher clearance than the 09 Outback. I ended up with the color because that was the only one on the lot with factory crossbars instead of rails on top. I prefer factory cross bars to aftermarket crossbars added to factory rails for my ski box. Fewer connections seems stronger to me.

I thought I'd miss the truck for hauling 4x8 plywood and stuff like that, but it just gave me the excuse to spend a little more money and pay pros for major projects. I toyed with a hitch and small trailer for moving stuff but never got around to going there always just paying a little more for pros to deliver and install things as I get older and have a little more disposable income.

 

[tball]

That's a great example of how tires make all the difference.

That was me in my RWD RX-7 with four studded snow tires during my extended stay in college skiing in CO. People couldn't believe the conditions I would easily drive through. The clearance was so low I used to go home and plow the snow in my parents street after big storms so they could get out. Fun times!

My RWD G35 with X-Ice 3's also does great in the snow but isn't nearly as fun as that RX-7 was. The RX-7 just begged to be sideways with the rear wheels spinning and kicking up snow like a snowblower.

 

[crgildart]

Got through a few Minnesota winters and several Colorado and New Mexico chains required passes in an 8 cylinder Pontiac Firebird. Those chains were one of the best investments I ever made, but I only used them when I had to. Got there just fine although many others in the ditches and smashed in to each other did not on those trips.