• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Colorado No, Front Wheel Drive And All-season Tires Isn't Good Enough For Colorado Skiing

tball

Unzipped
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
4,362
Location
Denver, CO
Heading home from A-basin Saturday I got some good evidence that front wheel drive and all-season tires just doesn't cut it for Colorado skiing.

Getting near the top of Loveland Pass, we came upon a couple cars stopped and spinning their tires.

20160206_143009.jpg

What was remarkable about these conditions is the snow was all windblown. There was no new snow in 24 hours and only an inch in 48 hours. With blue skies all day, you'd think the road would be clear enough for just about any vehicle, with maybe some packed snow at the top of the pass the worst of it.

The wind blew 4-6" on top of packed snow/ice and it was REALLY slick on the last steep pitch to the top. Even with three people pushing, the red car couldn't make any forward progress. The silver front wheel drive Volvo couldn't go either. He finally got turned around and headed back down the pass adding an hour or so to his drive!

20160206_143037.jpg

So, I decided to give my new snow tires a test and see if I could pull the little red car to the top. :D I really didn't have much confidence given how slick it was, but thought it was worth a try.

It turned out to be surprisingly easy. One little red car with California plates delivered to the top of Loveland pass by studded Nokian Hakkapeliitta 7's and a V8 Toyota 4x4 in 4-low:

20160206_143858.jpg

It wasn't just those cars having trouble. Looking back down, it was such a sh*t show I could have spent the rest of the afternoon pulling cars up. After seeing a gas tanker coming up (with chains I hope) and trying to pass all the stuck cars in the other lane :eek:, we decided to report the mess to CSP and head home.

From the CDOT app, it looked like Loveland Pass closed for a while to clean up the mess then they sent hazmat through the tunnel at the top of the hour the rest of the night because of the poor conditions on the pass. Again, this is on a day with no new snow!

Moral of the story is get some snow tires if you drive a 2WD vehicle skiing in Colorado. Even on a nice day for driving, you may truly need them.
 
Last edited:

jgiddyup

Asst. Gathermeister--Utah
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
418
So true.

I arrived in Aspen 31 Jan during a storm cycle and drove up that day from Denver. I'm very experienced driving in snow and storms, but the 2WD all season rental vehicle I had was really dicey and if I had lost momentum at the tunnel, ascending Vail Pass from Copper or going up the Snowmass access road there's no way I would have made it.

Some experience and some luck is all that got me there.
 

ErikL

AKA Bro12
Skier
Joined
Jan 6, 2016
Posts
214
Location
Reno, NV
What is it that makes FWD preferable for driving in dicey, slippery conditions like that? I often see that sort of reference and I can't really figure it out in my head. Is it just because the engine is above the axle, giving more traction there, even when pointed uphill? I guess in a small car that weight distribution would make a significant difference. I drive a big RWD van with decent all-season M+S truck tires so it isn't quite the same as a small compact with eco tires, and I've no experience driving anything but my van in bad weather.
 

Read Blinn

lakespapa
Inactive
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
1,656
Location
SW New Hampshire
Since a lot of us come in by plane, it would help if rental companies would make AWD available to reserve up front. (I know, I know, snow tires, but they're not going to do that.)
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
the issue with most FWD is their lack of LSD diffs. With out and LSD a Front wheel drive is just one wheel drive.
 

Bill Talbot

Vintage Gear Curator
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
3,166
Location
New England
the issue with most FWD is their lack of LSD diffs. With out and LSD a Front wheel drive is just one wheel drive.

This is a big problem, but the bigger issue is the lack of consumer understanding about the drive systems on their cars, or what IS available.
It's just as big of a problem with AWD. They are not created equal! Between open front and rear diffs, they can also have various options on the center diff too. And before anyone goes there, traction control SUCKS as a next to no cost 'replacement' for true limited slip differentials. And the marketing hype is absurd, No drive system creates traction, it can divide the torque applied at each wheel to varying degrees with the right system. TIRES provide traction, without it, none of you fancy electronic 'safety' features can do ANYTHING.

Remember the original Audi Quattro? Now there was an amazing drivetrain! The current Subaru STI is a pretty decent set up with LS front and rear and a variable driver controlled center. But it don't come cheap. So the best most can do is a set of dedicated pure winter tires on their own rims and learn how to drive ;)
 

tromano

Goin' the way they're pointed...
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Posts
2,440
Location
Layton, UT
Looks like an ice rink in those pictures.

A note for the uninitiated. All-season tires ARE rated as snow tires - read the side wall. When people on this forum say snowtires what is meant is seasonal winter tires with snowflake on the mountain markings e.g. blizzaks.
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,327
Location
The Bull City
All Season tires perform equally poor in a every season. I still would rather drive a front wheel drive car with 4 snow tires than an All Wheel Drive car with all season.
Driving skills matter here. I'd prefer to be behind a winter novice driving AWD with good all seasons than a winter novice driving a 2WD with fair Blizzaks. Stopping 3/4s of the way up a steeper hill on an icy spot in a 2WD with fair condition Blizzaks may be worse than stopping in the same steep, icy spot in AWD with newer M+S. Also knowing how to use the loose and crunchy stuff along the edge for extra traction makes a difference. That said, I'd prefer sharing the road with experienced winter drivers regardless of the equipment. Most experienced winter drivers know better than to try it on bald tires or crappier ones or would at least chain up.
 

slowrider

Trencher
Skier
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Posts
4,534
You can go a down a hill a million times too slow. You only go down it once too fast.
 
Thread Starter
TS
tball

tball

Unzipped
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
4,362
Location
Denver, CO
All Season tires perform equally poor in every season. I still would rather drive a front wheel drive car with 4 snow tires than an All Wheel Drive car with all season.

I very much agree.

I drove 2WD vehicles skiing in Colorado for 15 years before my 4x4, including hundreds of trips over Loveland and Berthoud passes. I never had any problems with 4 snow tires, and easily handled similar conditions and worse. That's with both front and rear wheel drive vehicles. It really is your tires that matter most.
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,327
Location
The Bull City
You can go a down a hill a million times too slow. You only go down it once too fast.
Ya but if you do you are in the ditch and out of our way rather than clogging up the access road on a powder day morning.
 
Thread Starter
TS
tball

tball

Unzipped
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
4,362
Location
Denver, CO
Driving skills matter here. I'd prefer to be behind a winter novice driving AWD with good all seasons than a winter novice driving a 2WD with fair Blizzaks. Stopping 3/4s of the way up a steeper hill on an icy spot in a 2WD with fair condition Blizzaks may be worse than stopping in the same steep, icy spot in AWD with newer M+S.

I disagree. The physics of traction (tires) matters more than driving skill.

As we were hooking up the little red car, a handful of all wheel drive vehicles drove by us going both up and down. Those going up just barely had enough traction to get around the red car that was partially blocking the other lane. One coming down came within inches of hitting the red car as it had zero control and was skidding with all four wheels locked up. The physics of the crown of the road is all that saved him from hitting the car. Every one of the AWD drivers that passed that stuck car overestimated the capability of their vehicles and their driving skill.

You can't overstate the importance of tires. Those tires on my truck really are exceptional. I pulled that car up very easily. In those conditions, I wasn't sure I'd be able to pull him at all. My buddy riding with me has a Land Rover with all-season tires and didn't think there was any way I'd have enough traction. He even starting pushing my truck to get going until I yelled at him to get in, hit the gas and took off with very little wheel spin, even pulling the additional weight of the car.
 
Last edited:

Dave Marshak

All Time World Champion
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
1,454
Driving skills matter here. I'd prefer to be behind a winter novice driving AWD with good all seasons than a winter novice driving a 2WD with fair Blizzaks. Stopping 3/4s of the way up a steeper hill on an icy spot in a 2WD with fair condition Blizzaks may be worse than stopping in the same steep, icy spot in AWD with newer M+S. Also knowing how to use the loose and crunchy stuff along the edge for extra traction makes a difference. That said, I'd prefer sharing the road with experienced winter drivers regardless of the equipment. Most experienced winter drivers know better than to try it on bald tires or crappier ones or would at least chain up.
Nope. That might have been true 20 years ago, but modern winter tires combined with modern traction and stability control make snow driving easy. Most of the skill has been transferred to the car's electronics. You won't see any of my cars flying off the road, even when my heavy foot girlfriend is driving.
Saying you don't need proper tires because of AWD and your awesome driving skills is exactly the same as saying you don't sharpen your edges because you have slalom skis and awesome ski skills. Everyone who really has the skills knows differently.
 

Dwight

Practitioner of skiing, solid and liquid
Admin
Moderator
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Dec 13, 2015
Posts
7,441
Location
Central Wisconsin
What is it that makes FWD preferable for driving in dicey, slippery conditions like that? I often see that sort of reference and I can't really figure it out in my head. Is it just because the engine is above the axle, giving more traction there, even when pointed uphill? I guess in a small car that weight distribution would make a significant difference. I drive a big RWD van with decent all-season M+S truck tires so it isn't quite the same as a small compact with eco tires, and I've no experience driving anything but my van in bad weather.

It's easier to pull than push an object.
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,327
Location
The Bull City
Nope. That might have been true 20 years ago, but modern winter tires combined with modern traction and stability control make snow driving easy. Most of the skill has been transferred to the car's electronics. You won't see any of my cars flying off the road, even when my heavy foot girlfriend is driving.
Saying you don't need proper tires because of AWD and your awesome driving skills is exactly the same as saying you don't sharpen your edges because you have slalom skis and awesome ski skills. Everyone who really has the skills knows differently.

I was talking about driving a 2WD in winter conditions. Skill matters more there even with the best tires. Put great tires on Symmetrical AWD and I agree, it is much more foolproof than 20 years ago.
 

Dave Marshak

All Time World Champion
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
1,454
I was talking about driving a 2WD in winter conditions. Skill matters more there even with the best tires. Put great tires on Symmetrical AWD and I agree, it is much more foolproof than 20 years ago.
So was I. Tires are more important than AWD, and modern electronic stability and braking controls make anyone better than the highest skilled drivers were 20 years ago, Maybe not as fast, but definitely safer and less likely to fly off the road.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top