Colorado No, Front Wheel Drive And All-season Tires Isn't Good Enough For Colorado Skiing

[Dave Marshak]

What is it that makes FWD preferable for driving in dicey, slippery conditions like that?

Some of it is that there is more weight on the drive wheels, and some of it is that FWD will usually understeer where a RWD will oversteer, Most drivers are far more comfortable with understeer skids than oversteer skids. FWD is also way better if you need to steer out of a parking space.
I have a Miata that is fine in the snow as long as I have the snow tires on and the snow is not too deep, but I'm pretty comfortable driving sideways. I'd drive it more in the snow I weren't afraid of getting crushed by an Escalade with all season tires.

 

[tball]

.... I weren't afraid of getting crushed by an Escalade with all season tires.

Which reminds me of one of my favorite pictures from last year , an Escalade that passed me and my 4 studded snow tires going up Berthoud Pass. I fired up my camera cause I knew what was coming next:

 

[crgildart]

^^^Too fast! Too hard on brakes! There is no proof that non snow tires alone are to blame for that.. Nor is there any guarantee that the best Blizzaks known to man could have saved them if they were going 60 in to that curve. Per your testimony they blazed around and past you, a good all weather vehicle with good rubber. Even with great snows that alone probably proves they were going too fast for conditions even had they been chained all around.

 

[nay]

the issue with most FWD is their lack of LSD diffs. With out and LSD a Front wheel drive is just one wheel drive.

A LSD would do little to help a FWD. Traction control doesn't get it done, and that's really more sophisticated than a single axle LSD. I wouldn't trust a FWD even with snow tires in those conditions on a high pass. Soapy snow on top of ice is a difficult condition, and you'd want more drivetrain than just FWD to be safe.

OTOH, yanking out small cars is fun. I pulled a Mazda out of deep ditch snowplow debris a couoke weeks ago on Loveland pass. There was a Jeep trying and getting nowhere, and people pushing, so I stopped and pulled it out. I think it would be possible to get those little cars airborne.

Great pics, BTW. That's a great depiction of those "unexpected" conditions.

 

[John O]

A note for the uninitiated. All-season tires ARE rated as snow tires - read the side wall. When people on this forum say snowtires what is meant is seasonal winter tires with snowflake on the mountain markings e.g. blizzaks.

I have never owned a tire that's considered an "all season" tire that did not have the M+S designation on it, which I assume is what you're referring to. Whether the law considers them "snow tires" (or "traction tires" in some states) depends entirely on the state you're in. On the west coast for example, in CA and WA, M+S count as "snow tires", in OR you have to have the mountain and snowflake.

 

[jmeb]

All-Seasons I've seen are almost always rated M+S. But this is a tread design designation only, and does not require actual performance tests.

In CO, M+S tires (i.e. most all seasons) satisfy the Passenger Traction Law (aka Code 15) requirement. There is no code that requires Snowflake-rated tires. Code 16 (the next one up) requires chains on all vehicles.

 

[Josh Matta]

traction control is not more sopsitcated than a single axle LSD. They are also entirely different things.

LSD mechanically sends power to the wheel with most grip no electronic of gismos just good old soild physics that reacts instantanstly . Traction control uses the brake and electronic throttle to limit power if the tires are slipping, if both tires are slipping the traction control just hits the brakes harder......

With an LSD you can practically hang a FWD car on the front end and pull it though a turn in basically any condition with out one your inside wheel just spins. It helps a ton in snow. I have owned several FWD cars with LSDs both factory and installed all of the LSD have been helical in design. After installing the Quafie Diffs into a 94 Honda Integra the are was a ton easier to go in the snow.

 

[James]

The VW Synchro was an interesting system. On the wagon it had an air switch in the console in frintbof the shifter. If I remember right pulling it out once locked the center diff to 50/50 frt/rear, next notch locked the rear diff, and third notch locked front and rear? Could be wrong.
It was fun to play with though.

 

[tball]

^^^Too fast! Too hard on brakes! There is no proof that non snow tires alone are to blame for that.. Nor is there any guarantee that the best Blizzaks known to man could have saved them if they were going 60 in to that curve. Per your testimony they blazed around and past you, a good all weather vehicle with good rubber. Even with great snows that alone probably proves they were going too fast for conditions even had they been chained all around.

No doubt he was going too fast. That's true by definition since he passed me.

I think it's worth looking at why he was going too fast in that corner. First, he was an idiot for driving so fast on the straightaway prior to that corner. That wasn't his fatal mistake, though. His second and biggest mistake was underestimating how long it would take his brakes to slow the vehicle prior to the corner. He braked WAY too late for the traction he had available and I'm sure never intended to enter the corner at that speed.

If he had better tires I think there's a good chance his braking prior to the corner would have slowed him to a reasonable speed. That plus the improved traction for cornering would have given him a fighting chance of making the corner. I'd even be willing to bet that with my new Hakkapeliitta's I could retrace his footsteps and be just fine.

 

[crgildart]

^^^ all directly related to winter driving skill and knowing the limitations and capabilities of your vehicle across different conditions

 

[Tom K.]

FWD wit 4 snow tires is awesome, until you get to a steep uphill.

Luckily, nobody else on this forum has had to back up their father-in-law's driveway in a Saab 900 with the hatchback open to get their wife home for Christmas!

 

[tromano]

I have never owned a tire that's considered an "all season" tire that did not have the M+S designation on it, which I assume is what you're referring to. Whether the law considers them "snow tires" (or "traction tires" in some states) depends entirely on the state you're in. On the west coast for example, in CA and WA, M+S count as "snow tires", in OR you have to have the mountain and snowflake.

Yep. I am confused whenever I see people recommend snow tires instead of all seasons. The recommendation should be better stated to equip seasonal winter tires (snowflake mountain rated) for wintertime driving in ski country.

.

 

[Alexzn]

What's the actual difference between snowflake rated tire and M+S tire?

 

[tromano]

Link http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=125

 

[ErikL]

What's the actual difference between snowflake rated tire and M+S tire?

The mountain snowflake meets testing standards and requirements for snow, while M+S just says that the tire's tread matches some geometric patterns. Fwiw, my all-season M+S tires are stamped with a simple snowflake next to all the tire info, but that isn't the same as the mountain snowflake (snowflake on a three-peak mountain).

 

[DoryBreaux]

Not just CO... Kirkwood Ice Box anybody? lol.

I know that AWD systems are designed for the average joe driver who doesnt really know how to handle a vehicle in conditions where you actually need it, but I've never driven an AWD vehicle I really liked.
I'll take my 4x4 truck with A/T tires any day of the winter (and summer) thank you. Maybe its just because I know exactly how its going to respond to pretty much everything I could do in it, but I even prefer it to the Subaru AWD. And dont get me started on traction control.

 

[Jilly]

I know that AWD systems are designed for the average joe driver who doesnt really know how to handle a vehicle in conditions where you actually need it, but I've never driven an AWD vehicle I really liked.

I've gotten used to my Chevy Equinox, but I loved my Blazer/Jimmy's. It's not the same.

 

[Monique]

I like to drive, but I'm not interested in getting a doctorate in it. My Outback - stick shift - with snow rated tires and decent tread does great. The stick is annoying when I-70E is stop and go up to the tunnel, but in snow it gives me a lot of confidence.

 

[tball]

Yep. I am confused whenever I see people recommend snow tires instead of all seasons. The recommendation should be better stated to equip seasonal winter tires (snowflake mountain rated) for wintertime driving in ski country.

.

When folks talk about snow tires, I think they generally mean those with the mountain snowflake symbol (i.e. real snow tires).

M+S rated tires don't cut it as snow tires. As noted above, most all-season tires are M+S rated. I didn't look at the markings, but I bet the tires on that red car I pulled up the pass were M+S rated from a quick glance.

 

[crgildart]

I'll take my 4x4 truck with A/T tires any day of the winter (and summer) thank you. Maybe its just because I know exactly how its going to respond to pretty much everything I could do in it, but I even prefer it to the Subaru AWD. And dont get me started on traction control.

Meh, I had a Trooper LS I really liked with A/T tires on it.. Owned it several years and went through a couple different A/T tires. I've now got an 09 Forester that I've run A/Ts on and some better M+S (there are a few that are decent in snow but most suck). The only thing the truck did better was REALLY DEEP snow. Everything under 6 inches, be it fluff, slush, but ESPECIALLY ICE the Subaru AWD destroys the truck at.

My favorite thing about the truck and the A/T tires is that they looked so much cooler. I searched high and low for a gnarly looking A/T that was better than average on packed and icy but had no luck. If it looks gnarly and knobby it sucks in winter. You can add siping to those A/T tires to get it a little better, but with the same tires Symmetrical AWD>Most regular truck 4WD options.