Mogul ski as it relates to skiing a direct line in moguls

[Noodler]

It's just one tool of many for tight bumps. Quick cadence drill edge to edge (sorr ot). How do you look getting edge to edge and turn to turn that quickly and tight?

I'm not advocating against active steering of the skis when in tight bumps. That is required often and I will do it myself (with tipping/angulation of course). But I won't do the dead flat pivot. That is just such an '80s move to me; leave it in the era of straight skis. It doesn't take advantage of modern ski design, nor does it work in so many situations. It's best for skiers to just avoid it all costs. Don't even put it/keep it in your tool box. You're just bound to pull it out and try to use it at the wrong time.

 

[Chris V.]

The soft tips compliments the technique where moguls skies will use the face of the bump to absorb the forces, thus allowing them to control their speed. This is my telltale sign that a skier has been coached or influenced by freestyle mogul coach(es), they can ski almost upright, straight down the line and know how to use the face of the upcoming bump to control their speed.

Jack, this is really helpful to someone like me not so far along on the learning curve, working to get comfortable with staying in rhythm as the bumps get a little more serious. I know that you started this thread mostly to talk about gear, but I feel like this concept of absorption of force through flexion of the tips of the skis has been an element missing from my efforts. I haven't seen it talked about a lot in the video training materials available on the Web.

Something new to practice!

Related to this would be the flexion actively anticipating the oncoming bump that Chuck Martin talks about. I feel like one of the challenges for many of us is to practice this early and active flexion. Skiers tend to be passive and allow the bump to create the flexion--resulting in being thrown back approaching the crest, whereas the goal is to be already having the hips moving forward as we're cresting the bump. Make sense?

 

[jack97]

Jack, this is really helpful to someone like me not so far along on the learning curve, working to get comfortable with staying in rhythm as the bumps get a little more serious. I know that you started this thread mostly to talk about gear, but I feel like this concept of absorption of force through flexion of the tips of the skis has been an element missing from my efforts. I haven't seen it talked about a lot in the video training materials available on the Web.

No worries, the intent of this vid was to show how mogul skis compliment the techniques used by competition moguls skiers today. The concept of applying forward pressure to the front of the ski dates back decades when skis didn't have so much shape. IMO, the ski community as a whole lost touch with this when skis became easier to turn. Like many, changes has it pros and cons. What got lost is how it is used in skiing moguls in a direct line, and designed in specifically for mogul skis nowadays.

There some great videos that talks about using forward pressure. The one shown below is from Fearing, time 9:16 where he shows a drill to manage this pressure for speed control.

Related to this would be the flexion actively anticipating the oncoming bump that Chuck Martin talks about. I feel like one of the challenges for many of us is to practice this early and active flexion. Skiers tend to be passive and allow the bump to create the flexion--resulting in being thrown back approaching the crest, whereas the goal is to be already having the hips moving forward as we're cresting the bump. Make sense?

Perfect sense.

 

[Rod9301]

Jack, this is really helpful to someone like me not so far along on the learning curve, working to get comfortable with staying in rhythm as the bumps get a little more serious. I know that you started this thread mostly to talk about gear, but I feel like this concept of absorption of force through flexion of the tips of the skis has been an element missing from my efforts. I haven't seen it talked about a lot in the video training materials available on the Web.

Something new to practice!

Related to this would be the flexion actively anticipating the oncoming bump that Chuck Martin talks about. I feel like one of the challenges for many of us is to practice this early and active flexion. Skiers tend to be passive and allow the bump to create the flexion--resulting in being thrown back approaching the crest, whereas the goal is to be already having the hips moving forward as we're cresting the bump. Make sense?

Until the skis are right on top of the bump, you cannot have the hips ahead of your feet.
Think about the shape of the bump, it's like a hill going up, so your skis will be parallel to it, and hips, to get maximum flexion, have to fall behind.
Then as you crest you quickly pull your feet back, while simultaneously change direction.

 

[Superbman]

Check out this video-he skis and then discusses 3 very different skis--mostly in moguls: Head TITAN, Head Rebel iSL, and a Dynastar Twister (mogul specific ski). The direct visual comparisons of skiing both the Head iSL and Dynastar in the same moguls by the same very talented mogul skier shed some real light on this discussion.

 

[crgildart]

I'm not advocating against active steering of the skis when in tight bumps. That is required often and I will do it myself (with tipping/angulation of course). But I won't do the dead flat pivot. That is just such an '80s move to me; leave it in the era of straight skis. It doesn't take advantage of modern ski design, nor does it work in so many situations. It's best for skiers to just avoid it all costs. Don't even put it/keep it in your tool box. You're just bound to pull it out and try to use it at the wrong time.

In other words, you CAN'T do it that fast yourself..

 

[jack97]

Check out this video-he skis and then discusses 3 very different skis--mostly in moguls: Head TITAN, Head Rebel iSL, and a Dynastar Twister (mogul specific ski). The direct visual comparisons of skiing both the Head iSL and Dynastar in the same moguls by the same very talented mogul skier shed some real light on this discussion.

Blake is awesome! He is an aggressive skier. As mentioned, his opinion and mine is the Twister is on the softer side. That said, newbies wanting to learn how to bend that tip and ski a direct line should IMO go with a softer tip and a softer ski in general. Its the stiff tail that will knock you out of position.

There are more stiffer mogul skis that would be appropriate for a skillful mogul skier like Blake or heavier set skiers in general. What he and his video speaks to is how important the flex of that tip to the front part is for mogul skiing .

 

[François Pugh]

I'm not advocating against active steering of the skis when in tight bumps. That is required often and I will do it myself (with tipping/angulation of course). But I won't do the dead flat pivot. That is just such an '80s move to me; leave it in the era of straight skis. It doesn't take advantage of modern ski design, nor does it work in so many situations. It's best for skiers to just avoid it all costs. Don't even put it/keep it in your tool box. You're just bound to pull it out and try to use it at the wrong time.

What I've (an analytical engineer looking at forces, rotation and inertia) learned over the last few years is there is a lot of "steering" that will pivot a flat ski that is unintentional. In other words, I typically (never say never) don't try to pivot that flat ski. But I do a lot of things that will indirectly pivot the ski, and I mean besides using the tipped edges effectively.

 

[jack97]

Until the skis are right on top of the bump, you cannot have the hips ahead of your feet.
Think about the shape of the bump, it's like a hill going up, so your skis will be parallel to it, and hips, to get maximum flexion, have to fall behind.
Then as you crest you quickly pull your feet back, while simultaneously change direction.

Biomechanics you are spot on. Martin and Aldighieri feet pull back is again biomechanically what's happening. What is left out is you can start preparing in anticipation of the weight shift and getting the hip moving forward. Mosely's approach is to be "early" and resonates the best with me since its about exploding (jumping) into the new outside leg as you crest the mogul. When I think of crest, its about the approach and the apex. When to do this weight transfer, to drive the hip up and forward, depends on the bump shape and where you want to go.

 

[Scruffy]

Biomechanics you are spot on. Martin and Aldighieri feet pull back is again biomechanically what's happening. What is left out is you can start preparing in anticipation of the weight shift and getting the hip moving forward. Mosely's approach is to be "early" and resonates the best with me since its about exploding (jumping) into the new outside leg as you crest the mogul. When I think of crest, its about the approach and the apex. When to do this weight transfer, to drive the hip up and forward, depends on the bump shape and where you want to go.

Yup!

 

[LiquidFeet]

No worries, the intent of this vid was to show how mogul skis compliment the techniques used by competition moguls skiers today. The concept of applying forward pressure to the front of the ski dates back decades when skis didn't have so much shape. IMO, the ski community as a whole lost touch with this when skis became easier to turn. Like many, changes has it pros and cons. What got lost is how it is used in skiing moguls in a direct line, and designed in specifically for mogul skis nowadays.

There some great videos that talks about using forward pressure. The one shown below is from Fearing, time 9:16 where he shows a drill to manage this pressure for speed control.







Perfect sense.

This post is very helpful in sorting out different prescriptions about how to pivot skis, and how not to.

--PSIA has this thing against the pivot point being in front of the binding. As a PSIA instructor this message has been consistently delivered to me in certification preps. PSIA is especially adamant about candidates doing the pivot "right" in hop turns and pivot-slips. This synchronizes well with PSIA's promotion of pivoting the skis as they flatten when initiating turns. It is my understanding that PSIA sees a pivot point in front of the arch as accompanying backseat skiing. So bump skiing drills using the tip of the ski as the pivot point come into direct conflict with what I've received about pivoting from PSIA.
--One way to begin to learn the direct line down the bumps is to pivot-slip them. This has been my personal approach to learning the direct line as a late-blooming bump skier. The pivot-slip, with pivot point under the arch, gets me into almost any bump field, no matter the size nor condition (ice is nice). It gives me access to the ultimate speed control tool - friction. Side-slip and pivot-slip at a snail's pace, then speed up at will, that's been my doorway into direct line skiing. My pivot point is under the arch meaning the ski tips hang out in the air.
--I've seen the bump drills where the skis are pivoted around the tips, either with the tails sliding across the snow or in the air as in the video above. I have never seen this drill done by PSIA examiners or trainers, but of course my experience is limited. Sometimes the bump drill is focused exclusively on pivoting the new outside ski, leaving the new inside ski unpivoted, so the skier ends up wedging every turn entry. This drill is actually in the PSIA catalog of Level III tasks. It's called "sequential converging hop turns." I wondered why we are supposed to be able to do this drill on a groomer in a ski exam and found out its used one day when a PSIA National Team member went down the direct line in bumps using sequential converging hop turns all the way. So there's that. Why does PSIA not explain in the alpine manual that a pivot point at the tips is useful in bumps?
--From this thread I now know the reason for this type of pivoting. Keeping the tip down and pivoting the tails around it equates to keeping the tip down on the far face of the bump so it will be ready to stuff into the front wall of the next bump. Keeping the tails in the air on a groomer when doing the drill is necessary for learning the body mechanics that will keep the tip down on the snow in the bumps. This is clearly missing in my direct line bump skiing, so it's the first thing on my list for next season.
--Thanks @jack97 for also connecting this "pressuring the tips" business to skiing on straight skis, an entire era of skiing that I missed.

 

[Sanity]

I'm not sure if anyone can understand my ramblings or if anyone cares. I barely understand them. But, I think I've sorted through some of the issues. When I hear "pressure the front of the bump for speed control", it makes me think you sustain pressure to go slower and release pressure to go faster. The problem is that in my experience there's a limit to that. At some point if you maintain pressure for too long driving into the bump, it throws you in the backseat. So, tip pressure is a great way to control speed in a narrow line beginning with the backside and carrying through to the front of the bump, but the caveat is that you can't hold that pressure too long once you contact that bump. If you do, it will slow you down more for that moment, but then it sets you up poorly for the next turn cycle, and ultimately you'll end up gaining speed. I think this is why many mogul coaches talk about getting tip pressure on the backside of the bump, because it begins there and ends on the front side of the bump. Where as if you say pressure the front side of the bump, you might think as I did that it begins at the front of the bump and carries through up the bump, which it doesn't as far as I know.

 

[jack97]

I'm not sure if anyone can understand my ramblings or if anyone cares. I barely understand them. But, I think I've sorted through some of the issues. When I hear "pressure the front of the bump for speed control", it makes me think you sustain pressure to go slower and release pressure to go faster. The problem is that in my experience there's a limit to that. At some point if you maintain pressure for too long driving into the bump, it throws you in the backseat. So, tip pressure is a great way to control speed in a narrow line beginning with the backside and carrying through to the front of the bump, but the caveat is that you can't hold that pressure too long once you contact that bump. If you do, it will slow you down more for that moment, but then it sets you up poorly for the next turn cycle, and ultimately you'll end up gaining speed. I think this is why many mogul coaches talk about getting tip pressure on the backside of the bump, because it begins there and ends on the front side of the bump. Where as if you say pressure the front side of the bump, you might think as I did that it begins at the front of the bump and carries through up the bump, which it doesn't as far as I know.

Most moguls coaches will say to maintain forward pressure from the backside to the face of the upcoming bump. As you crest up the bump that outside leg should be near or all fully weighted. There are vids of mogul skiers performing flat land drills where they (micro) carve or pivot turn into a fully flex position. Its when you apex that crest that you transfer the weight to start that pressure again on the new outside leg. Some think of transferring the weight early to get themselves ready for that crest.

If you getting thrown to your backseat when you apply forward pressure at the face of the bump then you are not actively absorbing.

 

[Sanity]

Most moguls coaches will say to maintain forward pressure from the backside to the face of the upcoming bump. As you crest up the bump that outside leg should be near or all fully weighted. There are vids of mogul skiers performing flat land drills where they (micro) carve or pivot turn into a fully flex position. Its when you apex that crest that you transfer the weight to start that pressure again on the new outside leg. Some think of transferring the weight early to get themselves ready for that crest.

If you getting thrown to your backseat when you apply forward pressure at the face of the bump then you are not actively absorbing.

Right, by not actively absorbing to maintain pressure in order to slow down more, the bump puts you in the back seat.

 

[Noodler]

In other words, you CAN'T do it that fast yourself..

Cant do what that fast?

 

[Mike King]

Jack, this is really helpful to someone like me not so far along on the learning curve, working to get comfortable with staying in rhythm as the bumps get a little more serious. I know that you started this thread mostly to talk about gear, but I feel like this concept of absorption of force through flexion of the tips of the skis has been an element missing from my efforts. I haven't seen it talked about a lot in the video training materials available on the Web.

Something new to practice!

Related to this would be the flexion actively anticipating the oncoming bump that Chuck Martin talks about. I feel like one of the challenges for many of us is to practice this early and active flexion. Skiers tend to be passive and allow the bump to create the flexion--resulting in being thrown back approaching the crest, whereas the goal is to be already having the hips moving forward as we're cresting the bump. Make sense?

Tom Gellie discusses it in his advanced moguls video...

 

[Mike King]

This post is very helpful in sorting out different prescriptions about how to pivot skis, and how not to.

--PSIA has this thing against the pivot point being in front of the binding. As a PSIA instructor this message has been consistently delivered to me in certification preps. PSIA is especially adamant about candidates doing the pivot "right" in hop turns and pivot-slips. This synchronizes well with PSIA's promotion of pivoting the skis as they flatten when initiating turns. It is my understanding that PSIA sees a pivot point in front of the arch as accompanying backseat skiing. So bump skiing drills using the tip of the ski as the pivot point come into direct conflict with what I've received about pivoting from PSIA.
--One way to begin to learn the direct line down the bumps is to pivot-slip them. This has been my personal approach to learning the direct line as a late-blooming bump skier. The pivot-slip, with pivot point under the arch, gets me into almost any bump field, no matter the size nor condition (ice is nice). It gives me access to the ultimate speed control tool - friction. Side-slip and pivot-slip at a snail's pace, then speed up at will, that's been my doorway into direct line skiing. My pivot point is under the arch meaning the ski tips hang out in the air.
--I've seen the bump drills where the skis are pivoted around the tips, either with the tails sliding across the snow or in the air as in the video above. I have never seen this drill done by PSIA examiners or trainers, but of course my experience is limited. Sometimes the bump drill is focused exclusively on pivoting the new outside ski, leaving the new inside ski unpivoted, so the skier ends up wedging every turn entry. This drill is actually in the PSIA catalog of Level III tasks. It's called "sequential converging hop turns." I wondered why we are supposed to be able to do this drill on a groomer in a ski exam and found out its used one day when a PSIA National Team member went down the direct line in bumps using sequential converging hop turns all the way. So there's that. Why does PSIA not explain in the alpine manual that a pivot point at the tips is useful in bumps?
--From this thread I now know the reason for this type of pivoting. Keeping the tip down and pivoting the tails around it equates to keeping the tip down on the far face of the bump so it will be ready to stuff into the front wall of the next bump. Keeping the tails in the air on a groomer when doing the drill is necessary for learning the body mechanics that will keep the tip down on the snow in the bumps. This is clearly missing in my direct line bump skiing, so it's the first thing on my list for next season.
--Thanks @jack97 for also connecting this "pressuring the tips" business to skiing on straight skis, an entire era of skiing that I missed.

@LiquidFeet, I think it is easy to take what PSIA looks for in exam tasks or in descriptions in the IDP as being what PSIA values in good skiing. But that's not really what I think they mean. If it were, the five fundamentals would have been written differently, for example instead of "Control the relationship of the Center of Mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis" the wording would have been "... to direct pressure to the center of the ski."

National team members and those going for the national team whom I train with are looking to use the tip and tip loading in their bump skiing to ski a more direct line. They also use tip loading to catch the tip and preserve vertical space in their steep skiing in certain cases. Skiing has a wide toolkit that can be used, and IMO the organization does in many cases embrace different ways of accomplishing things.

The rub comes to the exams where they want to see you being able to get ski performance with specific elements of technique. But this doesn't mean that the organization, or at least those on the demo team, don't see that there are other valid ways of accomplishing a task...

Mike

 

[LiquidFeet]

@LiquidFeet, I think it is easy to take what PSIA looks for in exam tasks or in descriptions in the IDP as being what PSIA values in good skiing. But that's not really what I think they mean. If it were, the five fundamentals would have been written differently, for example instead of "Control the relationship of the Center of Mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis" the wording would have been "... to direct pressure to the center of the ski."

National team members and those going for the national team whom I train with are looking to use the tip and tip loading in their bump skiing to ski a more direct line. They also use tip loading to catch the tip and preserve vertical space in their steep skiing in certain cases. Skiing has a wide toolkit that can be used, and IMO the organization does in many cases embrace different ways of accomplishing things.

The rub comes to the exams where they want to see you being able to get ski performance with specific elements of technique. But this doesn't mean that the organization, or at least those on the demo team, don't see that there are other valid ways of accomplishing a task...

Mike

I assume our National Team members know all these variations for direct line bump skiing and that they can put them to use in all conditions. Of this I have no doubt. They just don't pass it down to us very efficiently. That's my beef, and has always been.

I don't get to train with those folks regularly as some of you do. People like me, who are not teaching and training at big mountains full of National Team members and team hopefuls, don't have access to this deep pocket of knowledge and skill that you do. Neither do the people who train people like me. PSIA needs to pass down this information to us better. Again, that's my beef.

 

[James]

Hey @jack97, are pole lengths getting shorter? Seems so from that Killington 90’s? vid where pole lengths were relatively long.

PSIA needs to pass down this information to us better. Again, that's my beef.

My solution is to abolish the Demo team. Stop spending all that money there. Maybe do some decent written material.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

@jack97 BEST THREAD EVER !!!