Mogul ski as it relates to skiing a direct line in moguls

[jack97]

First, let me get the disclaimers out of the way. My intent is not stir controversy but to promote understanding. Further, this is not saying what is the proper way to ski moguls. My selfish intent is to promote skiing in the moguls, how you want ski them is up to you,

Every now and then I read a post here about dedicated mogul skis, the pros and cons. I have been skiing on mogul skis for so long that I can't compare it to other skis. What I can say is what it is intended to do, The most obvious is the narrow dimensions and the lack of the side cut. The narrow or skinny width allows quicker edge to edge transition. The near straight sidecut is to prevent accidental hooks up while entering a turn in the bump and existing out of the bump. Most direct line mogul skiers like having the tips at maximum 100mm, most in the mid to high 90s. What this allows is precision while skiing in the troughs/ruts, especially when the formation is tightly spaced. IMO, having smaller tips allows newbies to practice aiming the face of the bump. With wider tips, the margin for error becomes smaller. Once they miss that target, it usually does not end well.

IMO, what is truly important is the flex pattern. The tips are generally softer and gradually stiffens toward the tail. The soft tips compliments the technique where moguls skies will use the face of the bump to absorb the forces, thus allowing them to control their speed. This is my telltale sign that a skier has been coached or influenced by freestyle mogul coach(es), they can ski almost upright, straight down the line and know how to use the face of the upcoming bump to control their speed. The stiff tail is an outcome from the aerial part of the sport. After landing, if the competitor ends up on the back side, then can lever themselves back up. This was the hardest part of the ski to overcome for me and IMO, for other newbies going into the moguls. With a stiff tail, you have to be on center, any weight thrown back there will result in "jetting" out of position. In general, newbies wanting to ski direct should start with a softer ski such as the K2 244 mogul. The old Dynastar Twister was on the softer side and I have read the Fisher Gunbarrel has the same flex characteristic.

Below is a product line vid of IDone where he talks about their ski characteristics. The flex pattern is inline with how most mogul skis are designed for. I did not mention torsional rigidity, I think we all want this from a ski...... here in NE areas, once its gone, the skis are toast.

 

[Sanity]

What this allows is precision while skiing in the troughs/ruts, especially when the formation is tightly spaced. IMO, having smaller tips allows newbies to practice aiming the face of the bump. With wider tips, the margin for error becomes smaller. Once they miss that target, it usually does not end well.

I haven't heard this before. Sometimes the grooves are cut so deep, that you wouldn't want to drive the tips into the bump without breaking the ski or yourself, and then it's wise to attack the bump closer to the fall line, but other times it seems people ski over any part of the bump they like depending on how much bump they want to absorb. Perhaps you can screen shot some pictures, and then point out the target or make a diagram? It also would be helpful if you could point to other parts outside the target and explain the outcome that "does not end well" if they miss and hit there instead.

 

[crgildart]

Lightweight and narrow for nimbleness and quick edge to edge transitions is important to me. The flex is a tricky combination.. Soft enough to bend with the bump bashing but beefy enough to hold firm at pretty high speed. My Cabrawlers aren't terrible at carving corduroy even when it's actually kinda icy. Main difference between them and my SuperShape iWorldcups is the SL cut isn't as easy to release if I decide to alter the line a bit or a lot. The narrower tails are the difference there.

 

[locknload]

First, let me get the disclaimers out of the way. My intent is not stir controversy but to promote understanding. Further, this is not saying what is the proper way to ski moguls. My selfish intent is to promote skiing in the moguls, how you want ski them is up to you,

Every now and then I read a post here about dedicated mogul skis, the pros and cons. I have been skiing on mogul skis for so long that I can't compare it to other skis. What I can say is what it is intended to do, The most obvious is the narrow dimensions and the lack of the side cut. The narrow or skinny width allows quicker edge to edge transition. The near straight sidecut is to prevent accidental hooks up while entering a turn in the bump and existing out of the bump. Most direct line mogul skiers like having the tips at maximum 100mm, most in the mid to high 90s. What this allows is precision while skiing in the troughs/ruts, especially when the formation is tightly spaced. IMO, having smaller tips allows newbies to practice aiming the face of the bump. With wider tips, the margin for error becomes smaller. Once they miss that target, it usually does not end well.

IMO, what is truly important is the flex pattern. The tips are generally softer and gradually stiffens toward the tail. The soft tips compliments the technique where moguls skies will use the face of the bump to absorb the forces, thus allowing them to control their speed. This is my telltale sign that a skier has been coached or influenced by freestyle mogul coach(es), they can ski almost upright, straight down the line and know how to use the face of the upcoming bump to control their speed. The stiff tail is an outcome from the aerial part of the sport. After landing, if the competitor ends up on the back side, then can lever themselves back up. This was the hardest part of the ski to overcome for me and IMO, for other newbies going into the moguls. With a stiff tail, you have to be on center, any weight thrown back there will result in "jetting" out of position. In general, newbies wanting to ski direct should start with a softer ski such as the K2 244 mogul. The old Dynastar Twister was on the softer side and I have read the Fisher Gunbarrel has the same flex characteristic.

Below is a product line vid of IDone where he talks about their ski characteristics. The flex pattern is inline with how most mogul skis are designed for. I did not mention torsional rigidity, I think we all want this from a ski...... here in NE areas, once its gone, the skis are toast.

Are you on your mogul skis most days OR do they come out depending in your conditions? Is it your belief even for us aging, non-elite mogul skiers that having a mogul ski in the quiver is an important tool for those days when you really are JUST going to ski bumps and not spend a lot of time skiing other stuff on the mtn? Obviously, it partially depends on how many days each person gets on the hill...but I'm still dedicated to get better in moguls but mostly ski them on wider all-mountain skis. Curious as to your thoughts.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Thank you, @jack97, for starting this thread.

In anticipation of this season's bump skiing, I got an old bump ski last summer and had it refurbished with new bindings. The ski was cheap, Volkl Dragon Slayer, $80, bindings and tune $150, so if I got a bump ski that's not right for me or that's dead, I can live with it.

I haven't used it yet. I sat this ski season out because of a vulnerable family member in the house. I'm following what people say with interest.

 

[François Pugh]

The soft tips compliments the technique where moguls skies will use the face of the bump to absorb the forces, thus allowing them to control their speed. This is my telltale sign that a skier has been coached or influenced by freestyle mogul coach(es), they can ski almost upright, straight down the line and know how to use the face of the upcoming bump to control their speed. The stiff tail is an outcome from the aerial part of the sport. After landing, if the competitor ends up on the back side, then can lever themselves back up. This was the hardest part of the ski to overcome for me and IMO, for other newbies going into the moguls.

Agree with everything you've said.
However, I do clearly remember playing with that technique a couple of years back when I was taking a pair of Ripstick 96s for a test ride, and I'm pretty sure you would never mistake my mogul skiing for that of someone who has had freestyle mogul coaching. My only contact with mogul coaches was asking one once if it was ok for me to use their roped off practice course (I was patrolling at the time). Maybe just mogul-coached and skiers with a civil engineering background?

Regarding soft and stiff tails, I had the opposite problem. Most of my skiing has been on skis with stiff tails, and I decided to rent some skis one day when cover was a little thin and conditions were a little rocky (more like a winter dirt road than a ski hill). I quickly discovered that there was no back seat to sit in when I managed to get into the back-seat position.

 

[jack97]

I haven't heard this before. Sometimes the grooves are cut so deep, that you wouldn't want to drive the tips into the bump without breaking the ski or yourself, and then it's wise to attack the bump closer to the fall line, but other times it seems people ski over any part of the bump they like depending on how much bump they want to absorb. Perhaps you can screen shot some pictures, and then point out the target or make a diagram? It also would be helpful if you could point to other parts outside the target and explain the outcome that "does not end well" if they miss and hit there instead.

Where you want to ski the mogul as you mentioned, on the hide side or lower in the trough is what I am talking about. Once you ski with narrow tips, this allows you to make more choices especially in those tight quarters. As for not ending well, I see skiers blow out of the line when they were trying to ski it direct, I sometimes do it when I miss. Other times , I might miss and hit rocks, ice or dirt, This will put me out off my rhythm and I end up on a new line. I don't sell a service, so having pics nor vids are in my arsenal.

Are you on your mogul skis most days OR do they come out depending in your conditions? Is it your belief even for us aging, non-elite mogul skiers that having a mogul ski in the quiver is an important tool for those days when you really are JUST going to ski bumps and not spend a lot of time skiing other stuff on the mtn? Obviously, it partially depends on how many days each person gets on the hill...but I'm still dedicated to get better in moguls but mostly ski them on wider all-mountain skis. Curious as to your thoughts.

I ski in New England, all the skis I own are moguls skis. Presently, I alternate between an Elan Bloodline moguls ski and a Dynastar Twister, my last from three pairs. I used the Elan Bloodlines when we have hard granular conditions, its a stiffer ski, holds an edge and doesn't vibrate when I go fast. Twister comes out when the bumps are pack powder. Both are turning into rock skis and I have the two below, waiting in the wings. Both are mogul skis. As for why my skis are mogul skis, that's all I ski, groomers doesn't move the needle for me. Not saying its good or bad, its just how I feel.

 

[jack97]

In anticipation of this season's bump skiing, I got an old bump ski last summer and had it refurbished with new bindings. The ski was cheap, Völkl Dragon Slayer, $80, bindings and tune $150, so if I got a bump ski that's not right for me, that's OK. But I haven't used it yet. I sat this ski season out because of a vulnerable family member in the house.

I'm following what people say with interest.

I skied the Volkl Rebellion 89-63-78 until it became a "rocker" ski. That was my favorite ski, had a very soft tip, a stiff tail and held a nice edge on hard granular. Had to retire after the fourth season, couldn't hold an edge no matter how many times I sharpened it.

lol.... I forgot to add, the Dragonslayer was the next mogul skis after the Rebellion and just before the Wall. Not sure if the dimension got wider. I heard for competition level, they didn't like the Wall because the tips were wide.

 

[Sanity]

Where you want to ski the mogul as you mentioned, on the hide side or lower in the trough is what I am talking about. Once you ski with narrow tips, this allows you to make more choices especially in those tight quarters. As for not ending well, I see skiers blow out of the line when they were trying to ski it direct, I sometimes do it when I miss. Other times , I might miss and hit rocks, ice or dirt, This will put me out off my rhythm and I end up on a new line. I don't sell a service, so having pics nor vids are in my arsenal.

Jack, looking through your posts, I respect what you have to say, but there are a few points I just can't understand, even though I'm trying my best. I don't know if you're not explaining it well, or if it's just something I have to experience. Maybe someone else can say it in different words. I'm hearing an idea where you drive the tips into a target on the bump, and this is a predominant method for speed control. That's a tough thing to understand, because of a few points: The idea of a target means part of the bump has just the right shape to affect speed. Moguls aren't uniform except on a course, so if driving your tips into the target is necessary to control speed, then as the bump shapes change you'd have to find that sweep spot in a different place on every bump. That's a tall order. For example, in flat light, judging the spot of the bump with just the right shape in a split second for every turn just doesn't seem feasible. Next, you might run across a few bumps that don't have that particular feature in the slightest, and then you'd lose your speed control until you came across a bump that did. We're not talking about a tremendous amount of speed control in the first place, so a few bumps with the wrong shape, and it would be akin to missing the target, and you'd have no chance of reigning in your speed, and you'd end up with some erratic skiing. For example, sometimes the backside of the bump is just a shear drop off, and then there's a flat top past that, so there's no front side to absorb per se. Finally, this entire concept of needing just the right spot on the bump goes against the fundamental approach that I've heard from other freestyle coaches. Mogul skiing is not about the bump. It's about the turn. This video below by Aldegheri embodies that with the tick-tock drill. I hear him say, when the moguls aren't well formed you have more choices, so I get that the bump starts constraining the turn as they become well formed, but I still believe there are lots of choices while skiing direct that gives freestyle a range of styles and makes it a beautiful art. This idea of a target is yours, so it's not something easy to understand or research. It seems to me the only way I could understand it is if you did a better job of explaining it, such as when and where can you ski with this style, when does it start breaking down? What defines the target? How do you spot it? What about the target provides the speed control?..... Sorry to be a pain in your backside.

 

[Rod9301]

I thought he explained it well.
But not everything works in all conditions.
For example, you might have to jump sideways to avoid a nasty bump, or throw in an extra turn.
Mogul skiing is difficult, probably the most difficult kind of skiing.

 

[jack97]

Jack, looking through your posts, I respect what you have to say, but there are a few points I just can't understand, even though I'm trying my best. I don't know if you're not explaining it well, or if it's just something I have to experience. Maybe someone else can say it in different words. I'm hearing an idea where you drive the tips into a target on the bump, and this is a predominant method for speed control. That's a tough thing to understand, because of a few points: The idea of a target means part of the bump has just the right shape to affect speed. Moguls aren't uniform except on a course, so if driving your tips into the target is necessary to control speed, then as the bump shapes change you'd have to find that sweep spot in a different place on every bump. That's a tall order. For example, in flat light, judging the spot of the bump with just the right shape in a split second for every turn just doesn't seem feasible. Next, you might run across a few bumps that don't have that particular feature in the slightest, and then you'd lose your speed control until you came across a bump that did. We're not talking about a tremendous amount of speed control in the first place, so a few bumps with the wrong shape, and it would be akin to missing the target, and you'd have no chance of reigning in your speed, and you'd end up with some erratic skiing. For example, sometimes the backside of the bump is just a shear drop off, and then there's a flat top past that, so there's no front side to absorb per se. Finally, this entire concept of needing just the right spot on the bump goes against the fundamental approach that I've heard from other freestyle coaches. Mogul skiing is not about the bump. It's about the turn. This video below by Aldegheri embodies that with the tick-tock drill. I hear him say, when the moguls aren't well formed you have more choices, so I get that the bump starts constraining the turn as they become well formed, but I still believe there are lots of choices while skiing direct that gives freestyle a range of styles and makes it a beautiful art. This idea of a target is yours, so it's not something easy to understand or research. It seems to me the only way I could understand it is if you did a better job of explaining it, such as when and where can you ski with this style, when does it start breaking down? What defines the target? How do you spot it? What about the target provides the speed control?..... Sorry to be a pain in your backside.

First, you are not a pain if you are asking questions with sincerity. I would say skiing direct requires a variety of techniques and the skills to accomplish them. The techniques are some that have been discussed recently. Further, the bump formation factors in as well, man made formation or natural, then you throw in conditions and steepness.

It is extremely difficult to say where is that perfect spot to aim for at that face, it really depends on many factors and what you are trying to accomplish. Below is vid from the Canadian Freestyle team, go to 9:03 on how the line is use to control speed. Again, you can go with a wider line or a more narrow line, having that precision is still key to all of this. This is much akin to racers having those extra tight boots so that they have precision in the foot movement.

As a side, skiing a direct line is much about absorption and extension (A&E) along with turns. I have only talked about turns because of vids of Deb, Aldegheri and mogul ski design speaks to this. Check out the section before 9:03 where they talk about A&E. Its that important, further I have had "Epic" thread wars on this topic.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I skied the Völkl Rebellion 89-63-78 until it became a "rocker" ski. That was my favorite ski, had a very soft tip, a stiff tail and held a nice edge on hard granular. Had to retire after the fourth season, couldn't hold an edge no matter how many times I sharpened it.

lol.... I forgot to add, the Dragonslayer was the next mogul skis after the Rebellion and just before the Wall. Not sure if the dimension got wider. I heard for competition level, they didn't like the Wall because the tips were wide.

@jack97, my refurbed ancient Dragonslayers are 160 in length and 92-60-78 according to my metal tape measure. Did you own these, or did anyone else ever own them? Got any memories of how they might behave in naturally formed firm eastern bumps, assuming they still have some life in them?

 

[jack97]

@jack97, my refurbed ancient Dragonslayers are 160 in length and 92-60-78 according to my metal tape measure. Did you own these, or did anyone else ever own them? Got any memories of how they might behave in naturally formed firm eastern bumps, assuming they still have some life in them?

Just what I thought, Dragon slayer has a slightly wider tip. Never own them nor did I know of others who skied them. I heard second hand the Rebellion and Dragonslayers had close to the same stiffness. Of all my mogul skis, the Rebellion was the best, that soft tip really reinforced pressuring the face of the bump to the point where it got into muscle memory. The mid section was still torsional stiff to hold an edge in NE bump and the ski didn't vibrate at high speed.

 

[Noodler]

Since we have this new active mogul skiing thread for discussion, I'd just like to throw it out there that the mogul skiing from Aldegheri is atrocious. He uses way too much flat ski pivoting/twisting, whereas current WC moguls skiers and all the great Bumpalooza guys do not. They are tipping their skis to make every turn and use much better A&E technique. Aldegheri doesn't "turn" the skis much, rather he's just redirecting where they're pointing by using a flat pivot. I have no idea what kind of a WC mogul skier he was when he was younger, but his current mogul skiing just looks plain ugly to me.

 

[Sanity]

First, you are not a pain if you are asking questions with sincerity. I would say skiing direct requires a variety of techniques and the skills to accomplish them. The techniques are some that have been discussed recently. Further, the bump formation factors in as well, man made formation or natural, then you throw in conditions and steepness.

It is extremely difficult to say where is that perfect spot to aim for at that face, it really depends on many factors and what you are trying to accomplish. Below is vid from the Canadian Freestyle team, go to 9:03 on how the line is use to control speed. Again, you can go with a wider line or a more narrow line, having that precision is still key to all of this. This is much akin to racers having those extra tight boots so that they have precision in the foot movement.

As a side, skiing a direct line is much about absorption and extension (A&E) along with turns. I have only talked about turns because of vids of Deb, Aldegheri and mogul ski design speaks to this. Check out the section before 9:03 where they talk about A&E. Its that important, further I have had "Epic" thread wars on this topic.

In that video at 9:03 for the wider line, would you say the skier is hitting the front of the bump where it's bigger away from the center of the fall line, or merely the skis are coming across the hill more with the tips basically hitting at the same place?

 

[jack97]

Since we have this new active mogul skiing thread for discussion, I'd just like to throw it out there that the mogul skiing from Aldegheri is atrocious. He uses way too much flat ski pivoting/twisting, whereas current WC moguls skiers and all the great Bumpalooza guys do not. They are tipping their skis to make every turn and use much better A&E technique. Aldegheri doesn't "turn" the skis much, rather he's just redirecting where they're pointing by using a flat pivot. I have no idea what kind of a WC mogul skier he was when he was younger, but his current mogul skiing just looks plain ugly to me.

I had the opportunity to ski with some of the Bumpalooza east coast guys. They are freaking amazing skiers. That said, Aldegheri is about a generation older than most of the them. He is in the same generation as Chuck Martin. Rumor has it he is the male skier following Martin in some of those clips shown below. I won't argue on techniques, IMO skiing with slightly wider skis and the bump formation they were on made it look sloppy. As for the aesthetics, it still look good to me.

Further, these guys and gals made jumps in natural terrain, the kickers and landing zones were not formed. They didn't even practice offseason landings. All have said their knees are shot not because of the bumps but because of the landings they took. With that I will give them slack if they can't skis they way they could back in the day.

 

[jack97]

In that video at 9:03 for the wider line, would you say the skier is hitting the front of the bump where it's bigger away from the center of the fall line, or merely the skis are coming across the hill more with the tips basically hitting at the same place?

The way she was skiing it, it was more the skis are coming across the hill. The release or the transition to the next turn is at the same spot.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Since we have this new active mogul skiing thread for discussion, I'd just like to throw it out there that the mogul skiing from Aldegheri is atrocious. He uses way too much flat ski pivoting/twisting, whereas current WC moguls skiers and all the great Bumpalooza guys do not. They are tipping their skis to make every turn and use much better A&E technique. Aldegheri doesn't "turn" the skis much, rather he's just redirecting where they're pointing by using a flat pivot. I have no idea what kind of a WC mogul skier he was when he was younger, but his current mogul skiing just looks plain ugly to me.

@Noodler I get it. And every accomplished and even aspiring zipper line bump skiers get it. That is a Deb Armstrong public consumption/bumps for mere mortals video. It is to demo a movement pattern which the mere mortal can aspire to, it is to encourage progress.

It is not Michael Kingsbury. It is not competition level direct line mogul coaching.

@Sanity and I and likely others would like to see the target of the bump face drawn in and a description of how to hit the target and a description of how to release from the target and how the ski should be positioned for the next target.

@jack97 is doing a fantastic job of dealing with us unknowledgable types trying to conceptualize concepts we have never seen and thus cannot visualize.

@Noodler you're up.

Please make the knowledge pool deeper.

 

[crgildart]

Since we have this new active mogul skiing thread for discussion, I'd just like to throw it out there that the mogul skiing from Aldegheri is atrocious. He uses way too much flat ski pivoting/twisting, whereas current WC moguls skiers and all the great Bumpalooza guys do not. They are tipping their skis to make every turn and use much better A&E technique. Aldegheri doesn't "turn" the skis much, rather he's just redirecting where they're pointing by using a flat pivot. I have no idea what kind of a WC mogul skier he was when he was younger, but his current mogul skiing just looks plain ugly to me.

It's just one tool of many for tight bumps. Quick cadence drill edge to edge (sorr ot). How do you look getting edge to edge and turn to turn that quickly and tight?

 

[Sanity]

@Noodler I get it. And every accomplished and even aspiring zipper line bump skiers get it. That is a Deb Armstrong public consumption/bumps for mere mortals video. It is to demo a movement pattern which the mere mortal can aspire to, it is to encourage progress.

It is not Michael Kingsbury. It is not competition level direct line mogul coaching.

@Sanity and I and likely others would like to see the target of the bump face drawn in and a description of how to hit the target and a description of how to release from the target and how the ski should be positioned for the next target.

@jack97 is doing a fantastic job of dealing with us unknowledgable types trying to conceptualize concepts we have never seen and thus cannot visualize.

@Noodler you're up.

Please make the knowledge pool deeper.

I can ski straight in the moguls. I can take a wider line. When I get too fast skiing straight, I take a wider line. My question is would anybody either take a wider line at that same point or go faster than I want to ski? This question is important, because there's no point trying to improve my speed control techniques if they are already as good as humanly possible with a narrow line. So, how do I answer this question without doing experiments with someone better than me on the slope? One way is to hear what other people would describe as their limits before they need to go to a wider line (thanks Seldomski). Another way is to hear how people would describe their speed control techniques in a narrow line to see if there's anything I haven't fully explored. This explains the nature of all my questions to Jack. Really, I need to see video of someone going my speed, straight on terrain where I wouldn't go straight. I've scoured Youtube, but either people are going at world cup speeds, it's easy terrain, or they're using a wider line.

One thing I've explored recently is a very early weight shift with tip pressure carving along the side of the spine. It's so early that I don't even drop into the trough. It's more like slicing along the top of the backside, but the skis are pointed down the fall line. Does this ring a bell at all? Seems unlikely, because without dropping low into the trough, there's very little absorption that needs to happen, which makes the quick weight shift possible, because the bump isn't pushing me back. Once I drop down lower towards the trough, then any pressure into the face of the bump pushes me back, and then by the time I retract the legs, foot contain, and weight shift, I'm already so late pressuring the tip that there's no choice but to be further down towards the trough, and this cycle brings me to a different technique. By the time I'm pressuring into the bump, I'm perpetually further back, which works to control speed "punching the bump", but only in easy soft conditions. Skiing a narrow line in tougher conditions requires me not to pressure the face of the bump. So, therefore I want to know, how do you do it Jack?