MA request: some bumps and carving on green...

[Mike King]

I know you know this but the ankle also abducts/adducts as well as rotates internally and externally. I'd argue that abduction and adduction causes the big toe/little toe tilting. Rotating the ankles in a ski boot is difficult but those rotary motions starting from the feet and moving up the legs allows for ski rotation like what is needed to do pivot slips

Actually, tipping (inversion and eversion) of the foot comes from the subtalar joint, a joint below the ankle. It is a mitered hinge joint, where internal rotation of the lower leg (the tibia/fibula) leads to eversion of the foot and external rotation leads to inversion of the foot, in approximately a 1:1 relationship. There is also abduction and adduction of the foot that occurs as well. The tibia/fibula fit around the talus similarly to a set of headphones around the head, but they slide around the talus with rotation of the lower leg.

We had a great clinic last week with Tom Gellie discussing this subject in depth! He went through this lecture -- a preview of the lecture is below. It might be worth it to buy/rent the lecture...

 

[Lvovsky /Pasha/Pavel]

Didn't have time to read through the thread, but you're not able to flex at the ankle which puts you on your heels through all phases of the turn. Your upper and lower body separation is happening by twisting the lower spin rather than your femurs rotating in the hip sockets... more back and in. Just curious, do you have limited in dorsiflexion?

Regarding the boots/ankle/dorsiflexion: I seem to have plenty range of motion in the ankle when not in the ski boot.

The boot is Nordica March 1 100 flex (2019 model I believe). I can flex them plenty when I stand on one leg and flex another. I don't really "feel" the boot flexing when skiing tho. I'll get another thread started in the boot forum because I have some questions about the fit...

Some foot sliding forward and rotating side-to-side (and NM bootfitter recomendation please)

The boot is Nordica March 1 100 flex (2019 model I believe). I can flex them plenty when I stand on one leg and flex another. I don't really "feel" the boot flexing when skiing tho. Over the counter foot bed (Surefeet I think), have 12-15 days on these boots and ready to get a custom footbed...

www.pugski.com

 

[markojp]

Regarding the boots/ankle/dorsiflexion: I seem to have plenty range of motion in the ankle when not in the ski boot.

The boot is Nordica March 1 100 flex (2019 model I believe). I can flex them plenty when I stand on one leg and flex another. I don't really "feel" the boot flexing when skiing tho. I'll get another thread started in the boot forum because I have some questions about the fit...

Some foot sliding forward and rotating side-to-side (and NM bootfitter recomendation please)

The boot is Nordica March 1 100 flex (2019 model I believe). I can flex them plenty when I stand on one leg and flex another. I don't really "feel" the boot flexing when skiing tho. Over the counter foot bed (Surefeet I think), have 12-15 days on these boots and ready to get a custom footbed...

www.pugski.com

Now we're getting somewhere!

 

[Prosper]

Actually, tipping (inversion and eversion) of the foot comes from the subtalar joint, a joint below the ankle. It is a mitered hinge joint, where internal rotation of the lower leg (the tibia/fibula) leads to eversion of the foot and external rotation leads to inversion of the foot, in approximately a 1:1 relationship. There is also abduction and adduction of the foot that occurs as well. The tibia/fibula fit around the talus similarly to a set of headphones around the head, but they slide around the talus with rotation of the lower leg.

Technically, this is absolutely correct. Most people think of ankle joint generically as both the talocrural joint (talus, tibia and fibula) and the subtalar joint (calcaneus and talus) but they're two distinct joints with different biomechanics and movements as @Mike King notes above.

 

[jack97]

Regarding the boots/ankle/dorsiflexion: I seem to have plenty range of motion in the ankle when not in the ski boot.

The boot is Nordica March 1 100 flex (2019 model I believe). I can flex them plenty when I stand on one leg and flex another. I don't really "feel" the boot flexing when skiing tho. I'll get another thread started in the boot forum because I have some questions about the fit...

That was the problem I had with my old four buckle boot, I could never get them to flex while on the hill. That's when I decided to go with a cabrio boot. Below is an interesting vid with the inventor himself.



If one was to look at some of the pics of former WC freestyle competitors, they will see some using this boot during competition. Furthermore, I have heard stories of how some competitors will soften the flex of their 4 buckle boot just to get that range of motion at the ankle. The are ways to do this, by taking out certain lugs/screws to dremeling out plastic sections between the top and lower pieces of the boot.

 

[Lvovsky /Pasha/Pavel]

That was the problem I had with my old four buckle boot, I could never get them to flex while on the hill. That's when I decided to go with a cabrio boot. Below is an interesting vid with the inventor himself.



If one was to look at some of the pics of former WC freestyle competitors, they will see some using this boot during competition. Furthermore, I have heard stories of how some competitors will soften the flex of their 4 buckle boot just to get that range of motion at the ankle. The are ways to do this, by taking out certain lugs/screws to dremeling out plastic sections between the top and lower pieces of the boot.

I’ve looked into flex softening methods. Will mention it to boot fitter next time I see one.

 

[Noodler]

Choosing boot flex is about the level of responsiveness you require/desire. How quickly do you want your inputs to produce outputs from your skis?

It's not about being able to flex the boot forward in order to bend your ankles/knees, we don't really ski that way, but now this thread is probably going to end up back down the rat hole about foot pullback to correctly pressure your ski tips and the correct movements to absorb irregular terrain (i.e. moguls).

 

[jack97]

It's not about being able to flex the boot forward in order to bend your ankles/knees, we don't really ski that way, but now this thread is probably going to end up back down the rat hole about foot pullback to correctly pressure your ski tips and the correct movements to absorb irregular terrain (i.e. moguls).

I suggest you look at post #3 in this thread, its from Tom Gellie, he uses a nice video sequence and how he interprets the mechanics of getting the weight forward.

 

[Noodler]

I suggest you look at post #3 in this thread, its from Tom Gellie, he uses a nice video sequence and how he interprets the mechanics of getting the weight forward.

The English language makes the communication of ideas sometimes challenging as people "interpret" statements from their own perspective. I have watched TG's videos many times over; including the one you referenced. I am not stating that boots do not flex forward, but that most skier's interpretation when others make that statement does not match what actually has to happen in your skiing movements when a boot flexes at the hinge point.

Quite often, we as "land creatures" try to use our knowledge of how our movements that "move" us on land apply when we happen to be on snow with skis on our feet. That's where things go really wrong for skiers trying to advance their skills. That was the basis for my comment that "we really don't ski that way". The boot flexing at the hinge point is a byproduct of other correct skiing movements that have nothing to do with trying to make a boot flex forward. Once this is properly understood, a whole world of skiing performance will open up for the skier.

I'm not trying to be controversial here. I'm honestly trying to help fellow skiers understand that our natural inclination as humans to try to "flex" a boot while skiing is not the correct movement that should be used.

 

[Noodler]

The ski boots' purpose in life is to serve as the "link" between our body and our skis. It must support the weight of our body and the forces we generate when skiing. So there isn't one boot flex that will match all skiers, since we vary in weight and the forces we apply to the skis. However, being able to flex a boot forward is NOT a necessary component of a boot to enable good skiing. On the contrary, the flexing of the boot actually delays the delivery of our inputs to the tools; our skis. Of course this "suspension" system should be tuned for the needs of the skier. So please view boot flex as something you should select based on what level of suspension you need. Do not view it as a necessary movement of the boot itself in order to ski well.

 

[Mike King]

The English language makes the communication of ideas sometimes challenging as people "interpret" statements from their own perspective. I have watched TG's videos many times over; including the one you referenced. I am not stating that boots do not flex forward, but that most skier's interpretation when others make that statement does not match what actually has to happen in your skiing movements when a boot flexes at the hinge point.

Quite often, we as "land creatures" try to use our knowledge of how our movements that "move" us on land apply when we happen to be on snow with skis on our feet. That's where things go really wrong for skiers trying to advance their skills. That was the basis for my comment that "we really don't ski that way". The boot flexing at the hinge point is a byproduct of other correct skiing movements that have nothing to do with trying to make a boot flex forward. Once this is properly understood, a whole world of skiing performance will open up for the skier.

I'm not trying to be controversial here. I'm honestly trying to help fellow skiers understand that our natural inclination as humans to try to "flex" a boot while skiing is not the correct movement that should be used.

Tom Gellie was in Aspen just before President’s Day for two indoor and one on snow clinics. Unfortunately, I didn’t get to ski with him as my clients decided to ski that day as well. The on-snow clinic was reportedly amazing and started with 3 hours of high performance skiing, both on and off piste, with the forefoot of everyone’s boots buckled and the cuff unbuckled with the power strap slack. So, what’s the take away? Movement in the ankle and subtalar joint is an important part of skiing. And the cuff shouldn’t restrict your ankle movements too much.

 

[James]

And the cuff shouldn’t restrict your ankle movements too much.

Been saying that for years. Still don’t really have a boot that accomplishes that without unbuckling.

 

[Noodler]

My perspective, and the approach I come from when considering all aspects of skiing, is how I can extract the highest performance from my gear and myself. When WC skiers start skiing races with super soft boots or with their boots unbuckled, then I might consider this alternative view... until then, nope.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The ski boots' purpose in life is to serve as the "link" between our body and our skis. It must support the weight of our body and the forces we generate when skiing. So there isn't one boot flex that will match all skiers, since we vary in weight and the forces we apply to the skis. However, being able to flex a boot forward is NOT a necessary component of a boot to enable good skiing. On the contrary, the flexing of the boot actually delays the delivery of our inputs to the tools; our skis. Of course this "suspension" system should be tuned for the needs of the skier. So please view boot flex as something you should select based on what level of suspension you need. Do not view it as a necessary movement of the boot itself in order to ski well.

Worthy of a refrigerator magnet.

 

[Bendu]

I was recently in a Steeps and Trees clinic where both the Examiner and Dev Team member were skiing in 150+ boots and they seemed like that have plenty of suspension, with out much ankle flex.

 

[jack97]

I'm not trying to be controversial here. I'm honestly trying to help fellow skiers understand that our natural inclination as humans to try to "flex" a boot while skiing is not the correct movement that should be used.

IMO, for newbies going into the bump, the inability to flex the ankles prevents them from making "certain" moments, and I'm not going to say what is correct b/c that itself will be controversial. Using the proper gear has to be taken into account for progression to happen. Furthermore, I don't expect someone new to the bumps to be able to make "certain" movements with the stiffest competition mogul ski either.

 

[Noodler]

IMO, for newbies going into the bump, the inability to flex the ankles prevents them from making "certain" moments, and I'm not going to say what is correct b/c that itself will be controversial. Using the proper gear has to be taken into account for progression to happen. Furthermore, I don't expect someone new to the bumps to be able to make "certain" movements with the stiffest competition mogul ski either.

I agree with what you're saying for the most part. When you're skiing skills are not yet quite advanced, you may need a bit of the "delay" from the suspension to handle unexpected outcomes from your inputs.

And please note that I'm not advocating a completely inflexible ankle joint; that couldn't be farther from the truth. This is more about the perspective of how you view the function of the ski boot. Is it something you forcibly flex or is it something that provides the needed support?

 

[Mike King]

My perspective, and the approach I come from when considering all aspects of skiing, is how I can extract the highest performance from my gear and myself. When WC skiers start skiing races with super soft boots or with their boots unbuckled, then I might consider this alternative view... until then, nope.

try it. You might find afterwards a new level of performance from your gear.

many members of the World Cup have engaged in similar activities...

 

[Noodler]

try it. You might find afterwards a new level of performance from your gear.

many members of the World Cup have engaged in similar activities...

Sorry , but you lost me there. What are you recommending that I try? I regularly ski with my boots loose (practically unbuckled) when I start every ski day. However, I know that when I want maximum performance (control) from my skis, I'm going to crank down the boots. Every skier kind of implicitly understands this after they learn to ski. A tighter boot simply provides more control. Similarly, a stiff boot provides more direct response; linking your movements to the resulting movements and pressure on the skis. There really shouldn't be any confusion on these points.

 

[Mike King]

Sorry , but you lost me there. What are you recommending that I try? I regularly ski with my boots loose (practically unbuckled) when I start every ski day. However, I know that when I want maximum performance (control) from my skis, I'm going to crank down the boots. Every skier kind of implicitly understands this after they learn to ski. A tighter boot simply provides more control. Similarly, a stiff boot provides more direct response; linking your movements to the resulting movements and pressure on the skis. There really shouldn't be any confusion on these points.

It depends on where. The foot needs to be secure so that movements in the ankle and subtalar joint are transmitted to the skis. But the cuff? If the boot is too tight, it restricts the ability to effectively use the ankle, which controls approximately 94% of body mass as opposed to something like 70% for the knee and 60% for the hip. Dave McPhail, when he instrumented WC skiers, found virtually no cuff pressure from those skiers.

Mike