MA request: some bumps and carving on green...

[jack97]

so you realize that the inner heel lift make you ankle more open as well?

,
Yes it does. It adds more flex range at the ankle. Second it brings up the shin so that it can add more leverage to the tongue. So do you why both can be beneficial for skiing bumps?

 

[Bendu]

Why do you want to flex your ankles? That sounds like too much work, and unnecessary. Also why do you need to leverage your tongue? I think neither would be beneficial to any skiing.

 

[markojp]

Why do you want to flex your ankles? That sounds like too much work, and unnecessary. I think neither would be beneficial to any skiing.

What leads you to think that? Where do you think the 'flexing*' happens? A big move, or a small one?

* Think of it as cuff contact and keeping your feet behind/under you if you will.

 

[jack97]

Why do you want to flex your ankles? That sounds like too much work, and unnecessary. Also why do you need to leverage your tongue? I think neither would be beneficial to any skiing.

Interesting reply. When absorbing a bump, the ankles needs to close just to keep the CoM near center of the ski. Furthermore, opening and closing the ankles is the key joint in moving the CoM along the ski.
Moving that CoM is needed to attack the bump or a line in general. Sometimes you want to slip that face or press the front of the ski into the face, its not a one size fits all.

Below, Brassard IMO the GOAT. Look at the line he takes, very direct, his tempo and turn radius matches to that line. That beginning section is sick, he can throw in small little turns just to stay in that line.

 

[Bendu]

You can move along the ski though knee/hip and spine movements as well.

GOAT at a subjectively judged sport is kind of meh. What is better about skiing a direct line and his tempo? Why do I never see anyone on my local runs at Sunapee and Wildcat skiing bumps with the feet glued together and hips swiveling?

 

[jack97]

If you just move your CoM with the knee/hip and spine you end up folding forward to absorb the bumps aka using your back to absorb. The hip will block them from reaching max absorption range if they do not close their ankles. I see that a lot at Sunnapee and Wildcat. I see a lot of skiers use turn shape and not ski the direct line at those places as well.

What you think as "better" is entirely on you. When I see some one who can control their speed in a direct line, they as using the techniques I described to name a few. Imo they have more depth of technique and skill to ski bumps in general.

 

[markojp]

You can move along the ski though knee/hip and spine movements as well.

GOAT at a subjectively judged sport is kind of meh. What is better about skiing a direct line and his tempo? Why do I never see anyone on my local runs at Sunapee and Wildcat skiing bumps with the feet glued together and hips swiveling?

Bendu, respectfully, some here (not all) are also accomplished coaches and instructors. We generally like and listen to what the other says. You seem pretty intent on argument for arguments sake. I think we generally try to communicate in a way that if we were to meet on the hill, we'd have fun and show ideas rather than wallow in interwebz word soup. For me, I'd show you the benefit of working/coaching/teaching from the bottom of the feet, up... including ankles. Not to crush the cuff of the boot, but to quickly and accurately modulate the BoS/CoM relationship. And from you, I'd be very interested in seeing effective skiing with no ankle involvement.

 

[Bendu]

Do you ski Sunapee mid week? I would love for you to show me?.

 

[Mike King]

You can move along the ski though knee/hip and spine movements as well.

GOAT at a subjectively judged sport is kind of meh. What is better about skiing a direct line and his tempo? Why do I never see anyone on my local runs at Sunapee and Wildcat skiing bumps with the feet glued together and hips swiveling?

But why would you limit movement to the two joints that are furthest from the ground? Fine motor control is greatest at the extremities. Try this exercise to see it for yourself (thanks to Jim Lindsey for this). On a whiteboard, sign your name holding the pen with your fingers. Now hold it between your thumb and rest of hand. Hold it with your elbow and try it again. Finally, between your body and humorous. Get the point?

The ankle is a very important joint for skiing -- it doesn't just get locked down and not move. Watch high level skiers and you will see how important it is...

 

[Bendu]

Bendu, respectfully, some here (not all) are also accomplished coaches and instructors. We generally like and listen to what the other says. You seem pretty intent on argument for arguments sake. I think we generally try to communicate in a way that if we were to meet on the hill, we'd have fun and show ideas rather than wallow in interwebz word soup. For me, I'd show you the benefit of working/coaching/teaching from the bottom of the feet, up... including ankles. Not to crush the cuff of the boot, but to quickly and accurately modulate the BoS/CoM relationship. And from you, I'd be very interested in seeing effective skiing with no ankle involvement.

The PSIA examiners that are my colleagues we all kind of agree that if you aligned properly the ankle should not need to flex that much if at all. This guy was coaching me a couple months ago and skis in a 180 flex DRS. As far as I know Erik Lipton from conversation with him does nt like his boot to move much at all. When I lurked on Epicski, I seem to remember hearing @Bob Barnes talk about his boots not flexing.

 

[Mike King]

Did you watch the video you posted? There's a tremendous range of ankle movement in his bump skiing. And what kind of terrain absorption do you think you'll get if you don't allow your ankle to move?

Mike

 

[Wilhelmson]

Not everyone skis 100 days a year so if our skiing is off or just improving we cant just tell our spine and hands to keep the body over the skis. While out of vogue in some circles keeping the shins on the tongue at least keeps our toenails happy and allows us to ski the fall line which is where we can then work on real skiing. Once we get that posture we can then relax our legs a little and still have the ankle movement there, hopefully not thinking about it.

 

[markojp]

I think we're talking past each other. I'm talking about maintainging forward cuff contact, not doing crazy gymnastics to crush the cuff.... doing very small things at the bottom of the chain, then working up. And that certainly doesn't preclude working higher up, particularly in the pelvis area.

(Eric, to the best of my knowledge skis a Head B3 unless he's been given the new plug. If he doesn't want his ankle to move at all, why not a B2 with all the pins in? Do you have information on his general foot mobility before he puts on his boots? Honestly, itd be interested to know. Why don't FIS bump skiers ski 180 flex boots? Why dont all WC athletes including
the women ski 170/180 flex boots? Why don't world tour free ride competitors? Genuinely curious.)

 

[Mike King]

Not everyone skis 100 days a year so if our skiing is off or just improving we cant just tell our spine and hands to keep the body over the skis. While out of vogue in some circles keeping the shins on the tongue at least keeps our toenails happy and allows us to ski the fall line which is where we can then work on real skiing. Once we get that posture we can then relax our legs a little and still have the ankle movement there, hopefully not thinking about it.

@Wilhelmson, there is no doubt that most recreational skiers ski from the tail of the ski rather than being centered over it. Feeling the shins against the front of the boot is a performance cue -- it is a mechanism of giving folk an external cue to help with the complex movements that are necessary to align the center of mass over the base of support. But that doesn't mean that the ankle should not move (an interesting aside, opening the ankle is plantar flexing, closing it is dorsiflexing, so all ankle movement is flexing!). Ankle movement is an essential part of balance, and balance is an essential skill for skiing.

I will sometimes give my students the "feel the front of the boot" cue, but only after they have failed to use the other cues I try to get them to use. My favorite is to have folk rock all the way forward on the skis and feel where the pressure is on the bottom of their foot, then rock all the way back to feel that. Finally, I get them in an athletic ski stance centered on the skis, tested with hopping, and feel the pressure there. And have them articulate the difference between the two non-ideal outcomes and the more ideal outcome. I tell them that if they feel the non-ideal outcomes, to adjust their joints to seek the ideal one.

Mike

 

[jack97]

Do you ski Sunapee mid week? I would love for you to show me?.

Sunapee still has the freestyle program. I have seen the head coach ski those seeded lines at goose, she is amazing. Go shadow and watch them on a weekend. Not sure how many assistance she has now, each one I've seen is top caliper.

 

[zag]

I think we're talking past each other.

Yup. We're getting a bit off topic here and kinda drowning out the OP. Can we take the tech discussion to a new thread?

Just an overall thing, as coaches and instructors we have a tendency to get to far in the the technical minutia it kinda if drowns out the messages to the guests - if ski learning is not fun, they won't come back. PSIA is finding this out the hard way in recent years

 

[jack97]

Yup. We're getting a bit off topic here and kinda drowning out the OP. Can we take the tech discussion to a new thread?

Just an overall thing, as coaches and instructors we have a tendency to get to far in the the technical minutia it kinda if drowns out the messages to the guests - if ski learning is not fun, they won't come back. PSIA is finding this out the hard way in recent years

IMO, its good to air out some of the fundamental issues mentioned in this thread. Yes, it could be going into the weeds but it gives an opportunity for the OP and others to hear this out. I know back when I starting skiing bumps, there were many misconception floating around at the old forum and its still floating around to this day.

A long as it doesn't get into a p!ssing match, let the OP and other decide whether they want to read it or not.

 

[mister moose]

Eri[c] Lipton from conversation with him does nt like his boot to move much at all. When I lurked on Epicski, I seem to remember hearing @Bob Barnes talk about his boots not flexing.
{Video = Eric Lipton skiing bumps, crud, and short turns}

No Eastern skier would EVER call that snow 'crud'. Especially this year. Hoping for vast improvement tomorrow.

Now back to ankle flex - or not!

 

[Seldomski]

2) more rotary/completed turns in the bumps. The faster you get these around, your speed control will improve in the moguls.

Agree, I notice in the videos that @Pasha skis are mainly in the fall line, they don't really point sideways. I think you need to "complete your turns." It looks like you are having some issues with speed in bumps, which is leading to a long traverse after each turn to get ready for the next.

I suggest slowing down considerably in the bumps (and groomers). Turn so that you come to a complete stop with little/no traverse at the top of the next bump.
Next, come to a complete stop at the top of the next bump in a flexed position.
Next, come to a complete stop at the top of the next bump in a flexed position and with upper body facing downhill. In that position, you can flow into the next turn. Then you might be able to add a bit of speed from there. I think in your notes, you mentioned this as a hockey stop on each bump.

You can also do this on a groomer. Make one turn to a full stop. Then do on turn to a stop and flexed. Then do one turn to a stop and flexed facing downhill. Turns should be C shaped.

Flexed means bring your knees up to your chest.

 

[Prosper]

But that doesn't mean that the ankle should not move (an interesting aside, opening the ankle is plantar flexing, closing it is dorsiflexing, so all ankle movement is flexing!). Ankle movement is an essential part of balance, and balance is an essential skill for skiing.
[/QUOTE]

I know you know this but the ankle also abducts/adducts as well as rotates internally and externally. I'd argue that abduction and adduction causes the big toe/little toe tilting. Rotating the ankles in a ski boot is difficult but those rotary motions starting from the feet and moving up the legs allows for ski rotation like what is needed to do pivot slips