Looking for advice about a new dog

[Tricia]

Mia's anxiety is weird and unpredictable. She'll run away from some people and be fine with others. Here's a picture of my oldest son holding Mia. He hadn't met her until yesterday and by the end of the visit he was holding her. We were all stunned.

View attachment 105027

Its been a month since we checked in here.
How has Mia been doing?
Gypsy update:
She's had some ups and downs which include more ups than downs.
She got bit by a neighbor dog on a walk, but it ended up being minor and seem to not have a negative impact on her progress.
At her socialization and confidence class last Saturday we went on a dog walk with all the other dogs in class and then formed a circle so all the dogs were facing other dogs. The trainer took the leash of random dogs in the class and showed all of us the different body mannerisms and barks to watch for. The task for us was to watch Gypsy's body, ears, and eyes while listening to her different voices so we can learn to predict her actions.
On the walk part of the class she whined and whimpered like she was anxious, but seemed to calm down toward the end of the walk. It was our job to be casual and let her know everything was okay.

We've been practicing the "look at me" to get her to pay attention to us when she is intent on something else. She's doing great at that, but we're a bit lax on practicing it.
In this shot Phil is working on getting Gypsy to look at him while I'm walking away. She has a hard time with that because, if both of us are there, she needs to look at both of us. Its just how she is.

We've learned a lot and are hoping to get her into some doggie day camps to help her gain more confidence around random dogs.

I'm really glad we found this Canine Rehab center.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Tricia and Phil good for you and Gypsy!

I was never a dog person, but apparently my wife's first word as a child was "doggie!"

So, I will pass on what I have learned from her.

First, she has enrolled in a dog obedience class every dog she has acquired. I saw the results with our dog, Kiva, who was also a dog pound rescue.

Second, dogs (like people) like to work. So, even though Kiva would not retrieve a ball to save her life, we taught her to bring her food ball to us for dinner. I would say "Are you hungry?" And she would look at me like "What are you stupid? I am always hungry." And then I would wait staring eyeball to eyeball with her and if she didn't immediately get it, I would say "Well, then go get your ball." Then she would go out the doggie door, get her food ball, and then bring it to the edge of the kitchen where she would enthusiastically spike it like a football player in the goal after a touchdown. She was visibly proud when she did that.

She knew a lot of other usual commands, sit, down, up, outside, out of the kitchen, place, which we mostly taught her with food rewards. The only other command which jumps to mind is "Gentle," which she understood when dealing with our cat and our neighbors.

"Look at me" is a great command, I usually pointed at my eyes when I commanded it.

BTW, I have heard that dogs are better than chimpanzees in the following way. If you point at something with your finger a chimpanzee will reportedly continue to look at you, while a dog will look at what you are pointing at. This command was especially helpful when Kiva would come to me because she couldn't find her food ball. I would point at the couch as say "Ball," and she would go look under the couch and try to fish it out from under. My wife also taught Kiva "Find Tim!" (by way of "Good Find Tim!" and a couple kibble bits) because if I didn't come back from working in the woods, she wanted Kiva to help find me.

I miss our dog. Once we raise our house, we will acquire another being with a different personality commonly referred to as a dog.

To me this dog was a pain in the ass always terrorizing our cat when he lived with us for 5 weeks (really smart and got the idea when I would growl at him loudly and chase him around the property). But, he is a perfect fit for my buddy and his family:

 

[James]

Tricia and Phil good for you and Gypsy!

I was never a dog person, but apparently my wife's first word as a child was "doggie!"

So, I will pass on what I have learned from her.

First, she has enrolled in a dog obedience class every dog she has acquired. I saw the results with our dog, Kiva, who was also a dog pound rescue.

Second, dogs (like people) like to work. So, even though Kiva would not retrieve a ball to save her life, we taught her to bring her food ball to us for dinner. I would say "Are you hungry?" And she would look at me like "What are you stupid? I am always hungry." And then I would wait staring eyeball to eyeball with her and if she didn't immediately get it, I would say "Well, then go get your ball." Then she would go out the doggie door, get her food ball, and then bring it to the edge of the kitchen where she would enthusiastically spike it like a football player in the goal after a touchdown. She was visibly proud when she did that.

She knew a lot of other usual commands, sit, down, up, outside, out of the kitchen, place, which we mostly taught her with food rewards. The only other command which jumps to mind is "Gentle," which she understood when dealing with our cat and our neighbors.

"Look at me" is a great command, I usually pointed at my eyes when I commanded it.

BTW, I have heard that dogs are better than chimpanzees in the following way. If you point at something with your finger a chimpanzee will reportedly continue to look at you, while a dog will look at what you are pointing at. This command was especially helpful when Kiva would come to me because she couldn't find her food ball. I would point at the couch as say "Ball," and she would go look under the couch and try to fish it out from under. My wife also taught Kiva "Find Tim!" (by way of "Good Find Tim!" and a couple kibble bits) because if I didn't come back from working in the woods, she wanted Kiva to help find me.

I miss our dog. Once we raise our house, we will acquire another being with a different personality commonly referred to as a dog.

To me this dog was a pain in the ass always terrorizing our cat when he lived with us for 5 weeks (really smart and got the idea when I would growl at him loudly and chase him around the property). But, he is a perfect fit for my buddy and his family:

View attachment 107261

Are those sea urchins?

 

[Uncle-A]

I have a question about your dogs and this is for anyone. Is your dog better with men or women? Or is there no difference in the reaction of the dog?

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Are those sea urchins?

Maybe. . .

Uncle-A: I can only speak to our female dog Kiva who was a Black Mouth Cur. She was good with all people. But she was an duplicitous dominant asshole to any other female dogs -- meaning that she was friendly until she assessed that she could take them, then would fight them into submission if I wasn't there to prevent it. If I wasn't there, she would put her foot on them and then they would be best friends ever after. That is the only thing I didn't like about Kiva and that she didn't like water. Other than that she was perfect.

I will add that I believe that you must be a parent i.e., the "top dog" if you own a dog -- that way your dog assumes your values and knows your expectations.

If not, IMHO a dog is like a poorly parented child, an unguided missle bound to hit, explode, and harm himself and others.

 

[Tricia]

@Tim Hodgson
I've had 6 dogs throughout my life, all of which have always been rescues. Three of which were beagle mix. I used to live in the country with lots of acreage prior to moving to Reno/Tahoe, so the dogs always had lots of freedom
Most of the time we just trained the pups on our own with basic training, sit, stay, potty outside, don't beg at the table...etc.
It wasn't until I had Otis that I felt a need to get help with training because I rescued him as a pup but knew he was going to be big. He ended up weighing 105 lbs. That training was invaluable.

Gypsy's training is quite different. She came into our home with lots of good trainng (sit, stay, down, shake, high five) but she had some anxiety. As the trainer said, "There is a difference between a well trained dog and a well behaved dog."
Gypsy had some anxieties when we adopted her. Much of this has diminished greatly through the socialization and confidence classe which I posted about above.
Most of what this class has focused on is having the dogs do normal activies around each other while we work on the "look at me".
This training has been a blast for us and for her.

You're right that dogs need a job. The best source of not having anxiety is figuring out how to let them do their job in a way that fits into the household. Obviously a cattle dog that lives in a sub division can't herd cattle.
BTW, Gyspy doesn't really play with toys. We got her a stuffed squirrel the first day we had her and she guards it, cherishes it and will occasionally play with it, but other toys we got her have been "meh".
Andy Mink comes over with his dogs who love to chase balls and she just lays down and watches them.

I have a question about your dogs and this is for anyone. Is your dog better with men or women? Or is there no difference in the reaction of the dog?

Gypsy likes men and women equally but has an issue with big bushy beards that conceal facial features.

 

[TheArchitect]

Its been a month since we checked in here.
How has Mia been doing?
Gypsy update:
She's had some ups and downs which include more ups than downs.
She got bit by a neighbor dog on a walk, but it ended up being minor and seem to not have a negative impact on her progress.
At her socialization and confidence class last Saturday we went on a dog walk with all the other dogs in class and then formed a circle so all the dogs were facing other dogs. The trainer took the leash of random dogs in the class and showed all of us the different body mannerisms and barks to watch for. The task for us was to watch Gypsy's body, ears, and eyes while listening to her different voices so we can learn to predict her actions.
On the walk part of the class she whined and whimpered like she was anxious, but seemed to calm down toward the end of the walk. It was our job to be casual and let her know everything was okay.

We've been practicing the "look at me" to get her to pay attention to us when she is intent on something else. She's doing great at that, but we're a bit lax on practicing it.
In this shot Phil is working on getting Gypsy to look at him while I'm walking away. She has a hard time with that because, if both of us are there, she needs to look at both of us. Its just how she is.

View attachment 107255

We've learned a lot and are hoping to get her into some doggie day camps to help her gain more confidence around random dogs.

I'm really glad we found this Canine Rehab center.

Yeah, it's been a while, hasn't it? I've been really busy and haven't gotten back with an update so thanks for the poke!

Mia continues to get more comfortable with Ellen at a much faster rate than she does with either me, Olivia Noah or Adam. In fact, she's started to occasionally bark when any of the four of us get to close to Ellen unexpectedly. We talked with a behavior consultant and she told us that Mia is "resource guarding". We have our first session with the trainer in about 2 weeks. We can handle her being slow to get used to me and the kids but not the barking so that was the last straw.

Another interesting development is that I'm somewhat allergic to her! I've been dealing with some redness in my eyes for the last three months and it's gotten a bit worse the last week so I finally decided to go have my eyes checked out. The doctor said it was definitely an allergic reaction and asked if I was sensitive to environmental stuff like pollen. I've never had seasonal allergies in my life so we were puzzled until she asked me if had any major changes at home in the last few months and I finally realized Mia was the only big change. It hadn't occurred to Ellen or me that maybe it was Mia affecting my eyes. In any case, I'm taking medicine reverse the reaction and will see what happens. If it continues I'll start taking Claritin. When I told Ellen she was worried that I wanted to get rid of Mia but there's no freaking way I want to do that. I love that little girl!

Thanks for the update on Gypsy! I'm glad you have been making progress with her. Sorry to hear she was bitten but at least it was minor.

Are you guys signed up for a set number of classes or is it open-ended until Gypsy gets completely over her anxiety? We're signed up for a couple private sessions but I'm expecting the trainer will recommend classes after. How often do you guys have classes with Gypsy?

 

[TheArchitect]

I have a question about your dogs and this is for anyone. Is your dog better with men or women? Or is there no difference in the reaction of the dog?

Mia doesn't appear to favor men or women. She is very attached to my wife but everyone else seems to be equally in second place.

 

[Tricia]

there's no freaking way I want to do that. I love that little girl!

I know what you mean about the allergies. And I know how important a commitment to a dog is.
Especially in Mia's situation. Your stability will go a long way for her emotional healing.
I think you'll find her training and socializing with a qualified behavior specialist is priceless.
That poor girl needs confidence. You're well on your way to get it for her.

Thanks for the update on Gypsy! I'm glad you have been making progress with her. Sorry to hear she was bitten but at least it was minor.

Are you guys signed up for a set number of classes or is it open-ended until Gypsy gets completely over her anxiety? We're signed up for a couple private sessions but I'm expecting the trainer will recommend classes after. How often do you guys have classes with Gypsy?

We signed up for a 5 week class, but it went a little longer because we had thunder storms cancel a couple of the sessions.
Some of the dogs in the socialization class with her also do doggy day camps where the trainers continue to work on socializing your dog with other dogs that are a good fit.
I'm really impressed with this group.

Sleepovers – Canine Rehabilitation Center and Cat Sanctuary

www.crcsdogs.org

Here is the description:
Building Confidence and Socialization Class
Building Confidence and Socialization. This class runs for 5 weeks, cost $150. If your dog is new to CRCS, a quick call is required and/or a possible meet and greet so we can make sure we place you in the right class, specific to your dogs needs.
This class is an excellent opportunity for young dogs, fearful/nervous dogs, inexperienced dogs or reactive dogs to get out and participate around other dogs working on the same challenges. It's a fun mix of education, structured socialization, confidence building and group walks. Bond with your dog, practice your handling skills and get your dog around other dogs in a real world setting, yet under structure. Build confidence, gain new experiences, learn and have fun. No judgments here, everyone is working on the same thing.
Classes are outdoors in the fresh air on our 5.2 acre property. It's an easy way to keep social distancing, yet still get out and enjoy time with your dog.
Vaccination records should be emailed to [email protected] prior to class.

 

[Tricia]

One point about dogs that are skittish that Kevin the trainer talked about is the tendancy for people to reach out their hand so the dog can smell you.
He said you don't need to do that. The dog's nose can smell you from far away, reaching your hand out to a dog that isn't comfortable around strangers only makes the dog uncomfortable and puts your hand at risk.

Paying attention to the position of Gypsy's eyes, ears and general body language has been eye opening. Also, her different sounds she makes.
Woof (I heard something outside)
Arh Rah Rah Rah Woof(That's the, "Its time to feed me")
Ruff(are you listening? I said there's something outside)
Yelp (I'm anxious because you left me home alone)
Whine (I'm not comfortable)

Every noise has a different meaning. The more we learn, the better we can serve her because we'll know what to do about which noise.
The good news is, the yelps and whines are a whole lot less frequent.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

TheArchitect: Do you feed Mia? If not, have everyone else stop feeding Mia except for you for a while. IMHO, she will learn to find you when she is hungry and love you really fast for feeding her. Also, you might as well read every thing there is about training and living with a dog. Trust me, your dog has been studying you. So, you likely are the one at a disadvantage in the relationship. But you must first understand and accept that you have an intelligent alien being living with you. Respect gets respect. If you treat Mia in any way less than the limited but sentient being that she is, she will sense your lack of respect. Observe her til you understand her. And you will be able to have your own personal relationship with Mia which will be different than your wife's relationship with her. It will be a fulfilling relationship. Pardon me, if I am stating the obvious. But these are the things I had to learn and did learn from my wife and from Kiva.

Tricia: After Kiva, I am totally convinced that dogs do communicate amongst themselves and, if we will engage them on their level about the things they care about, with us too. Have you tried blinking once slowly at your dog? I believe it conveys an "I'm o.k., we are in the same pack, and I love you. How are you?" message. And generally gets a slow blink in return. Works with cats too.

 

[Tricia]

@Tim Hodgson you may have missed the early conversation about Mia's history. She is a rescue with a history of being a breeder in a puppy mill.
This is likely to make the process more complex than the basics of bonding.
I've quoted the posts about her adoption below if you'd like to read about it.

I'd like everyone to meet Mia! She's a very, VERY shy miniature poodle who just turned 6 on March 11. She's in desperate need of grooming but otherwise adorable. We got her last night and I would say the transition from hasn't been easy for her. She was in Texas until 2 weeks ago and with a foster here in MA until last night so a lot of upheaval for her to deal with. She's hiding when she can and shaking a bit but today she ate and started to move around. She's very happy to be held and curl up next to us on the sofa but we know that it will be a while before she's truly comfortable.


View attachment 98164

She's doing really well. She's started following us around constantly instead of hiding most of the time. She's racing up and down the stairs during the day as well so she's adjusting to the house.

She shrinks away or freezes whenever someone makes eye contact with her. We know that she came from a puppy mill and that she was a breeder. I imagine she was constantly grabbed from her cage and she's conditioned to believe someone looking at her is going to grab her by the scruff and pick her up. I don't blame her for being suspicious of eye contact. All things considered things have gone better than we hoped.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my post.
I stated that I was previously not a dog person.
I was describing how I became a dog person.
And how our rescue dog Kiva became a person dog.
Anyway that is how I would approach conditioning Mia.
But my results were based on a sample of one rescue dog only.

 

[Tricia]

Gypsy had her final Socialization and Confidence class tonight.
It was a pretty informative series of classes.
Tonight's class was a purposeful walk with the other dogs in the class, then the big circle and introductions of the dogs in a controlled manner by the trainers.
When the trainers took the leash of each and every dog, they had some kind of attachment anxiety, some more than others.
Gypsy did fine leaving us to go with the trainer, but when there was a pause and she had to wait to come back to us, she started to jump up and down.
It was as if she was saying, "I did what you asked and greeted that other dog, now take me back to my humans."

The entire part of this excercise was to watch our dog's eyes, ears and body language during the process, while she was being introduced to another dog and while she was in the presence of the other dogs doing the same thing and how she responded with their behavior.

There were three dogs in the class that she was "aware" of; two german shepards and one cattle dog.
The cattle dog likes to lock eyes on Gypsy, so we were alert to break eye contact.
Overall, she was relatively calm while she waited her turn.

It was eye opening and reinforced what she's been getting out of the class.

 

[Tricia]

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my post.
I stated that I was previously not a dog person.
I was describing how I became a dog person.
And how our rescue dog Kiva became a person dog.
Anyway that is how I would approach conditioning Mia.
But my results were based on a sample of one rescue dog only.

I don't think anyone was offended, but I thought you would find it helpful if we could fill in some information.
Sometimes its not easy to catch up with a thread that is several pages long.

 

[TheArchitect]

Again, sorry for not replying sooner!

One point about dogs that are skittish that Kevin the trainer talked about is the tendancy for people to reach out their hand so the dog can smell you.
He said you don't need to do that. The dog's nose can smell you from far away, reaching your hand out to a dog that isn't comfortable around strangers only makes the dog uncomfortable and puts your hand at risk.

Paying attention to the position of Gypsy's eyes, ears and general body language has been eye opening. Also, her different sounds she makes.
Woof (I heard something outside)
Arh Rah Rah Rah Woof(That's the, "Its time to feed me")
Ruff(are you listening? I said there's something outside)
Yelp (I'm anxious because you left me home alone)
Whine (I'm not comfortable)

Every noise has a different meaning. The more we learn, the better we can serve her because we'll know what to do about which noise.
The good news is, the yelps and whines are a whole lot less frequent.

This is interesting because Mia seems to like when I reach out with my hand, but ONLY if I offer the back of my hand to sniff. She'll do that and then lick my hand. The few times I offered my hand either sideways or palm-first she wanted nothing to do with me.

Mia has a couple different barks and whines but we haven't yet figured out what she's communicating. The whines are obvious. She only does that when Ellen leaves the house and left behind with either me or Olivia. She's been doing that less, which is good. It's great that Gypsy is so good at communicating, and that you are able to tell the difference.

TheArchitect: Do you feed Mia? If not, have everyone else stop feeding Mia except for you for a while. IMHO, she will learn to find you when she is hungry and love you really fast for feeding her. Also, you might as well read every thing there is about training and living with a dog. Trust me, your dog has been studying you. So, you likely are the one at a disadvantage in the relationship. But you must first understand and accept that you have an intelligent alien being living with you. Respect gets respect. If you treat Mia in any way less than the limited but sentient being that she is, she will sense your lack of respect. Observe her til you understand her. And you will be able to have your own personal relationship with Mia which will be different than your wife's relationship with her. It will be a fulfilling relationship. Pardon me, if I am stating the obvious. But these are the things I had to learn and did learn from my wife and from Kiva.

Tricia: After Kiva, I am totally convinced that dogs do communicate amongst themselves and, if we will engage them on their level about the things they care about, with us too. Have you tried blinking once slowly at your dog? I believe it conveys an "I'm o.k., we are in the same pack, and I love you. How are you?" message. And generally gets a slow blink in return. Works with cats too.

We mix up who is feeding her, but I am the one who gives her bits of chicken or turkey from my plate. Whenever she hears me rustling around the kitchen, or the microwave beep, I know that Mia will be arriving at my feet very soon. We're pretty happy that she recognizes that Ellen isn't the only source for food. On other fronts, I'm careful to speak nicely to her, be non-aggressive in how I approach and not show any frustration. Overall it's been working, just a lot slower than it has for Mia bonding with my wife. On a positive note, a couple of times in the past week she's actually sat and stayed when I asked her if she wanted to go out. She was very hesitant but she did it, which is a big positive change.

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my post.
I stated that I was previously not a dog person.
I was describing how I became a dog person.
And how our rescue dog Kiva became a person dog.
Anyway that is how I would approach conditioning Mia.
But my results were based on a sample of one rescue dog only.

Not offended in the least. This is my first dog (second one for my wife). I appreciate all advice, including what you posted.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

TheArchitect: One quick little Pamela tip for separation anxiety. My wife would always give Kiva her food ball when we left the house at 5:45 each morning. If we were running late, she would look at us (every once in a while, bark at us) "Hey, speed it up will ya? Don't you have somewhere to be? Get outta here." If you have a food oriented dog, and it only takes a little scarcity to make a dog food oriented, in this manner, you can train your dog from being anxious about you leaving to being enthusiastic about you leaving.

Food balls are kinda fun, because they teach your dog delayed gratification. And for extra humor, you can hide them and train them to be a search dog.

I should add this to my signature: Learning Chief Architect X12 Premiere, one mistake at a time. . .

 

[TheArchitect]

TheArchitect: One quick little Pamela tip for separation anxiety. My wife would always give Kiva her food ball when we left the house at 5:45 each morning. If we were running late, she would look at us (every once in a while, bark at us) "Hey, speed it up will ya? Don't you have somewhere to be? Get outta here." If you have a food oriented dog, and it only takes a little scarcity to make a dog food oriented, in this manner, you can train your dog from being anxious about you leaving to being enthusiastic about you leaving.

Food balls are kinda fun, because they teach your dog delayed gratification. And for extra humor, you can hide them and train them to be a search dog.

I should add this to my signature: Learning Chief Architect X12 Premiere, one mistake at a time. . .

Good advice. Thanks!

I had to Google X12 Premiere. Another piece of software trying to put me out of a job! Luckily I don't do residential and light commercial so it's not a real threat.

 

[Tricia]

My wife would always give Kiva her food ball when we left the house at 5:45 each morning

By food ball, are you talking about a treat ball or Kiva's actual food/meal?

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Actual food. We put her kibble in it. Pam had a measuring cup for the right amount. And Kiva brought it do us at dinner time, and I filled it and handed it to her and she would head out the doggie door with it. When we would leave on extended ski trips, Pam would fill up an ice chest (without ice) with them, two a day, for the neighbor to give Kiva:

Omega Paw Tricky Treat Ball
by Omega Paw
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