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Look Pivot Criticisms

tomahawkins

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Since getting back into skiing after a 30 year break (blame snowboarding), I've gravitated to Look Pivots as my binding choice mainly because as a kid occasionally skiing Ajax and Highlands, I remember seeing the Look heel piece thinking it was cool and different with how the rear clamp tucked up behind the boot, not even appearing to be part of the ski itself. But after a few years of skiing Pivots, a few of its minor annoyances have motivated me to explore other brands; this season I've been spending time on Marker Griffons and Tyrolia Attacks. My hope is that the following list of objective criticisms will be picked up by Rossignol R&D and marketing and that they refine their product back into greatness.

1) Poor Packaging

The first experience a user has is opening the package and Look's binding boxes are poorly designed. Consider how Apple packages its products. Within the industry, Marker is doing a good job. The problem is beyond simple aesthetics; many times when I receive a Look binding, I can hear the front mounting screws rolling around inside and about 15% of the time a screw has found its way to one of the box's many holes and escaped.

2) Marring the Heel Pieces with Poles when Stepping Out


3) Poor Brake Arm Retraction

Many voice complaints about too few or odd brake width accommodations. I think the larger problem is the brakes don't retract well into the center of the ski. I'm impressed by how Griffon brakes come up and then get sucked in -- other things may be overhanging the edge, but it's not the brakes. With Pivots, it's always the brake arms that are overhanging the most.

4) Poor BSL Adjustment, Forward Pressure Indication

Pivots work great when they are mounted for a specific boot. But this means I can't let my buddies try my skis and bindings (wait, maybe this is a feature...). Also, it seems kludgy that fore and aft adjustment causes bending in the adjustment arms. And setting forward pressure is more of an art as the white plastic indicators don't provide much indication. I would like to see Pivots replace the heel adjustment screws with fixed length arms and instead move to a conventional track system with a worm gear adjustment screw and forward pressure indicator -- not a pry-up-the-tab-with-a-screwdriver-and-bang-the-binding-forward-or-backward system.

5) Troubles Stepping In with Snow

Stepping in with snow stuck to the bottom of the boots is problematic because sometimes you get a false engagement: the heel goes in, but the clamp doesn't come all the way up. This is perhaps a side-effect of Pivot's large heel elasticity. What makes this troublesome is there is no good user feedback in either sound or feeling that distinguishes a solid engagement from a partial one; it really takes a visual inspection, which a lot of skiers don't take the time to perform.

6) Weight

I realize metal toes and burlyness is a selling point, but some users want lighter weight options. (Mass is good, but I'd prefer it in my skis, not my bindings.) It would be nice to have lighter weight, near equivalent models. I think Marker has done a good job with this with their Griffons and Jesters. Look already has lighter weight toes, they just need a lighter weight heel option.
 

Philpug

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1. The quality of the binding is directly inverse to the way it is packed. I agree 100%
2. Yup. that is well on radar with Look. A metal pocket like on the SPX would be nice.
3. See Above
4. This will come at a cost. Remember the AXIAL and the Pivot II with the horseshoe heel? The "New Coke" of Pivots? Becareful what you wish for. This will come at another cost and that is weight (addressing your #6). As far as your buddy's boots? Thats not Looks problem. As far as getting the correct forward pressure? I set and forget it.
5. While not the best, my issue is more with the amount of mechanics with the brake assembly collecting snow. While you might not have a "clunk" when you step in, the Pivot's 25+mm of elastic travel in the heel is one of the longest in the industry.
6. To quote Boris the Blade "With weight comes reliability". Even though the metal bindings might be slightly heavier to carry, the short mount and low rotational/unspring weight actually allows the binding to ski lighter. I would have more confidence skiing in a 25 year old Look (all metal) Z or early gen 15/18 (including Salomon Equipe/Racing) than almost all Delrin housed other 14/16's on the market. These just feel tired.
My additions:
7. Brake options. With more and more 80-85mm ski options, an 85mm brake would be nice. Like 2, 3, I hear this is also on the way.

A lot of the changes (other than the packaging) you are asking for were made when they came out with the Pivot II and Rossignol Axial and that binding failed miserably. This is why they came back with the original Pivot. There is a beauty to the simplicity and the rawness. Does it have it's quirks? Absolutely and if you are willing to deal with them, great. If not, there are some great offerings and a much lower price from every other major brand.

I am all for changing some og the cosmetic aspects like the cup for the pole and better packaging along with brake options.
 

JShort

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I feel like a large number of pivot buyers are willing to overlook all of these as long as Look keeps churning them out with cool new colors every year. Personally, I'd like to see them offer their Spx 15 and 18 bindings with wider brakes like they used to. I love the solid metal toe piece but don't like stepping into or skiing the pivot heel, and their old px15 bindings have lasted me forever
 

Philpug

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8. I'd like to see the RockerRace with wide brake options. This is the unicorn. It has..
  • The short mount distance of the Pivot for better flex
  • More adjustment range
  • Lower price point
 

Snowfan

aka Eric Nelson
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1) Poor Packaging

The first experience a user has is opening the package and Look's binding boxes are poorly designed. Consider how Apple packages its products. Within the industry, Marker is doing a good job. The problem is beyond simple aesthetics; many times when I receive a Look binding, I can hear the front mounting screws rolling around inside and about 15% of the time a screw has found its way to one of the box's many holes and escaped.
1. The quality of the binding is directly inverse to the way it is packed. I agree 100%


...and better packaging along with brake options.

My last 2 sets were missing a screw or two. Great bindings...poor Three Stooges packaging. Captain Crunch cereal box closes up better than the paper thin floppity no liner or foam box bindings sent in. At least put the screws in a baggie, not in their mount holes....loose.
 
Last edited:

silverback

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Griffons and Attacks just don't ski (or release) like Pivots imho.

1) All bindings I've received in the box are similarly packaged, don't get me started on the instructions. Most boxes are opened in the shop (they usually have lots of extra screws) so I don't think they are really meant to impress the customer.
2) We used to just twist out of turntable heels, no poking at them with a pole. My knee injuries make this tougher. The little metal cup like on the PX would be a nice upgrade. In the mean time, to minimize damage, just put light pressure from your pole and pull up with your heel, just enough to free it. Dont push the dildo all the way down with your pole. Use your free boot to do the other side. Then, pick up your skis and cock the heels with your hand.
3) Never had an issue with the brakes but I don't often ski switch.
4) Other bindings require adjustment in the AFD and or toe pieces. Pivots are easy in that respect. I share some skis with my kid who is about 10mm shorter BSL than me. I mount the heels half way between our sizes. Changing is quick and easy, he is on the forward marks and I am just ahead of the rearward ones. I keep a #3 posi in a drill on the bench so it is quick too. The track change you requested is the SPX, and it doesn't ski as well. The tracks you want mess with ski flex and feel.
5) You get used to it. How often do you fall/release? I ski about 100 days per year, 30-50 of them in powder and its has been a couple years since I released in deep snow. The last time I remember is two years ago on skis with STH2's on them and it did seem easier.
6) You want to add a track AND reduce the heel piece weight? Hmmm. The Pivot design keeps the weight close to your boot so, even if heavier, singweight is reduced so they don't feel like it. The others may be 3-4 oz lighter but I don't notice any lightness. I do opt for Pivot12's when I want to minimize weight on light skis.
 

oldschoolskier

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I have PX15’s and would consider the Pivot 15 as the best alternative. The biggest issue I find with brakes Looks or any other manufacturer is that they bind with and dirt or moisture. I use Breakfree CLP at those metal points and have no issues (disclaimer, at your own risk).

As to snow under boot or deep snow lock in, learn to clean your boots, learn manual lock in. Better than any other binding (Tyrollia 360’s also work well that way).

As with any device there are advantages and disadvantages you need to understand what is importance to you.

Packaging can’t comment (not enough experience).
 

bbbradley

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1) Poor Packaging

The first experience a user has is opening the package and Look's binding boxes are poorly designed. Consider how Apple packages its products. Within the industry, Marker is doing a good job. The problem is beyond simple aesthetics; many times when I receive a Look binding, I can hear the front mounting screws rolling around inside and about 15% of the time a screw has found its way to one of the box's many holes and escaped.
How many *normal* skiers buy bindings in the box vs having them pre-mounted? I almost never see the box they come in and would rather they save money on fancy packaging that most people never see. The shop guys probably don't care.

2) Marring the Heel Pieces with Poles when Stepping Out

Yeah, that's ugly, I've only owned one pair of Look/Rossi bindings, (Axial2 180 Maxflex) and they have a metal cup where a pole goes. That said, in your pic, your aim seems to be off. ;)

4) Poor BSL Adjustment, Forward Pressure Indication

Pivots work great when they are mounted for a specific boot. But this means I can't let my buddies try my skis and bindings (wait, maybe this is a feature...). Also, it seems kludgy that fore and aft adjustment causes bending in the adjustment arms. And setting forward pressure is more of an art as the white plastic indicators don't provide much indication. I would like to see Pivots replace the heel adjustment screws with fixed length arms and instead move to a conventional track system with a worm gear adjustment screw and forward pressure indicator -- not a pry-up-the-tab-with-a-screwdriver-and-bang-the-binding-forward-or-backward system.
To me that seems to be the right way to design a binding, to match with *your* BSL. I don't want/need to have a tolerance for other boots if it means I sacrifice retention/release characteristics. Setting bindings is always fussy if you don't touch them on a regular basis like a shop tech does. DIY binding work is risky, if it's too complex, trust a shop to do it.

5) Troubles Stepping In with Snow

Stepping in with snow stuck to the bottom of the boots is problematic because sometimes you get a false engagement: the heel goes in, but the clamp doesn't come all the way up. This is perhaps a side-effect of Pivot's large heel elasticity. What makes this troublesome is there is no good user feedback in either sound or feeling that distinguishes a solid engagement from a partial one; it really takes a visual inspection, which a lot of skiers don't take the time to perform.
You want to make the binding more tolerate of a situation that you should address before you put skis on? Check your boot soles for snow or you risk bindings not acting as you expect.

6) Weight

I realize metal toes and burlyness is a selling point, but some users want lighter weight options. (Mass is good, but I'd prefer it in my skis, not my bindings.) It would be nice to have lighter weight, near equivalent models. I think Marker has done a good job with this with their Griffons and Jesters. Look already has lighter weight toes, they just need a lighter weight heel option.
I want metal in my bindings. As an example, one of the guys at the start of the race yesterday went to step in his bindings...the plastic heel cup snapped. I 've now either experienced myself or witnessed 3 catastrophic binding failure during click-in, all three were Atomic/ESS and all three were plastic pieces in the heel failing.
 

Philpug

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How many *normal* skiers buy bindings in the box vs having them pre-mounted? I almost never see the box they come in and would rather they save money on fancy packaging that most people never see. The shop guys probably don't care.
Actually we/they do. As much as anything for storage and putting shelves. Look and Salomon are the worst for stacking. Marker, you can build a retaining wall with them.
 

bbbradley

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Actually we/they do. As much as anything for storage and putting shelves. Look and Salomon are the worst for stacking. Marker, you can build a retaining wall with them.
The original complaint was about the 1st user interaction with a binding, not about keeping your shelves tidy. :P
I wonder how the factory deals with them if they are so bad. I imagine they hold more SKUs and in greater volume that you.
 

Philpug

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The original complaint was about the 1st user interaction with a binding, not about keeping your shelves tidy. :P
I wonder how the factory deals with them if they are so bad. I imagine they hold more SKUs and in greater volume that you.
You said the shop guys don't care. My point is we do, I do some contract work at a shop. Look boxes are the worst.
 

bbbradley

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You said the shop guys don't care. My point is we do, I do some contract work at a shop. Look boxes are the worst.
I said *probably,* as there are usually exceptions to the rule. :)
 

anders_nor

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getting look pivots to fit inside a box may require chinese childlabour, I can't do it without something pokeing out, or lit not closeing, seems factory cant either :p

at least new jig is nice! 0 adjustments when using the right boot.

I can't claim I mount a lot of bindings, but I did mount 8 pivots last 7 days. all on binding freedom :)#¤)%#=")%=#")%
 
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tomahawkins

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8. I'd like to see the RockerRace with wide brake options. This is the unicorn. It has..
  • The short mount distance of the Pivot for better flex
  • More adjustment range
  • Lower price point

I thought, "Ah! Phil's wrong!" You can use SPX brakes on RockerRace!

But nope... Two brakes, side by side. One's RockerRace one's SPX. Which one is which? Arrg! Why didn't Look just design one part?

brakes.jpg
 

Philpug

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I thought, "Ah! Phil's wrong!" You can use SPX brakes on RockerRace!

But nope... Two brakes, side by side. One's RockerRace one's SPX. Which one is which? Arrg! Why didn't Look just design one part?

View attachment 126902
Not just two but the SPX Race heel is a third.
 

James

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My Pivots are so bad I’m going to ski them till they break.

The adjustment I’ve never learned. I did lend a ski with a pivot 18 on it to someone going to Colorado. I told him to take it to a shop to get it adjusted. It’s a bit of a black art. Being 20 somethings, they skipped that step and went straight to Youtube.
So they’re out there and wherever they went they get into 3 feet of powder. The ski isn’t great in one foot of powder, 3 would be rough. But the complaint was ”the heel was moving” when trying to turn in the stuff. That might have been part two on Youtube which they didn’t watch.
 

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