Let's Talk Kitchen Knives & Sharpening

[zircon]

Still haven’t got the vegetable knife! Did get landlord permission to install a magnetic bar though so it’s coming soon…

Verdict on the Tojiro bread slicer: love it. takes a little patience for it to bite but cuts so much more cleanly with less waste once it’s in there. Pictured here with a 65% hydration white sourdough that’ll be a friend’s birthday present this afternoon.

 

[JFB]

I don't have any great knives to brag about, but those that I have are all SHARP. My favorite is an old carbon steel 10" french knife that I bought for $2 about 50 years ago. I regularly use a diamond stone and ceramic stick and cringe whenever I see someone break out a steel stick.

 

[KingGrump]

cringe whenever I see someone break out a steel stick

Why cringe?

 

[JFB]

Why cringe?

Have you used them both?

 

[Tony S]

 

[KingGrump]

Have you used them both?

Yes.
I much preferred the steel. Especially one that has been around for a while.

The diamond honing rods are scary. Not crazy about the ceramic ones.

 

[Tony S]

Broiled green zebra tomatoes, garlic sourdough toast, gazpacho aioli.

 

[JFB]

Yes.
I much preferred the steel. Especially one that has been around for a while.

The diamond honing rods are scary. Not crazy about the ceramic ones.

Yeah, I could never get a steel to work well. They look like files and seem to leave rough edges when I've used them. Somebody once told me that they just bend the edge back and forth, for what that's worth. I much prefer the ceramic between sharpening with the diamond stone. The ceramics do need scrubbing with Comet or other abrasive cleaner from time to time to remove the metal removed from the knives.

 

[dbostedo]

Somebody once told me that they just bend the edge back and forth, for what that's worth.

I thought all honing rods, ceramic or steel, just did this. They aren't really intended to sharpen (i.e. remove metal to create a new edge) but to straighten/align the edge that is there for best effect. Nothing I've read about ceramic rods suggests they should be removing metal, but I haven't used one - only a steel rod.

 

[KingGrump]

Yeah, I could never get a steel to work well. They look like files and seem to leave rough edges when I've used them. Somebody once told me that they just bend the edge back and forth, for what that's worth. I much prefer the ceramic between sharpening with the diamond stone. The ceramics do need scrubbing with Comet or other abrasive cleaner from time to time to remove the metal removed from the knives.

File like?
A good honing steel should not have teeth or striations. The honing portion should have a matt finish. Smooth to the touch. It's the least aggressive of the three types of honing steel (rod).
Very often the manufacturers market the honing steel to the home cook consumer as "sharpening" steel. Generally their targeted consumers do not sharpen their knives. The fairly aggressive striations on their sharpening steel will actually remove some steel and thus make the knives feel a little "sharper"
A true honing steel has a matt finish and is smooth to the touch. It does not remove any metal from the knives. Basically, the honing rod just aligns the microscopic burrs.

I thought all honing rods, ceramic or steel, just did this. They aren't really intended to sharpen (i.e. remove metal to create a new edge) but to straighten/align the edge that is there for best effect. Nothing I've read about ceramic rods suggests they should be removing metal, but I haven't used one - only a steel rod.

I Tested 11 Honing Steels and Found the Best Ones For Maintaining Your Knives

We tested 11 honing steels to find which ones maintained knives' edges the best and had comfortable, grippy handles. We found three we recommend.

www.seriouseats.com

Both the ceramic and diamond rods remove metal from the knives. A good steel does not.
BTW, the Winware rod recommended in the article is crap. Winware has some of the worst "restaurant quality" stuff out there. Have to say they are cheap though.

I use a 12" Messermeister honing rod. No striations or teeth.


I still have several 14" ones from the restaurant days. They are totally smooth from use. Love them but they are too big to fit in the block.

 

[Andy Mink]

Yep, a steel rod just adjusts the edge. No need to go at it hard. I do several pulls with a little pressure and then a few with almost no pressure. As long as the edge was good to start with this freshens it nicely.

 

[cosmoliu]

I read an article on sharpening many years ago that had a microscopic image taken edge-on to the, um, edge. It was curled over like the letter "J". So it's also my understanding that the steel functions to bring the edge back upright.

 

[Uncle-A]

I don't have any great knives to brag about, but those that I have are all SHARP. My favorite is an old carbon steel 10" french knife that I bought for $2 about 50 years ago. I regularly use a diamond stone and ceramic stick and cringe whenever I see someone break out a steel stick.

I happen to like carbon steel blades. They are softer than stainless steel, so I use a stone and oil to sharpen them. It keeps them very sharp, I save the diamond sharpening tool for the stainless steel because the stainless steel is harder a material.

 

[James]

I read an article on sharpening many years ago that had a microscopic image taken edge-on to the, um, edge. It was curled over like the letter "J". So it's also my understanding that the steel functions to bring the edge back upright.

Not only electron microscope photos, but on this site he cuts blades with a beam to see the cross sections.

————————————
It is a common misconception that steeling does not remove metal, but simply “re-aligns the edge.” I have shown that re-alignment is one of the four results of stropping in What Does Stropping Do? However, in my experience this type of re-alignment rarely occurs. In the vast majority of cases, the steel near the apex is too damaged to be straightened, and instead simply breaks away rather than realign…


In simple terms, steeling primarily produces a micro-bevel. To be consistent with these definitions, steeling does not sharpen the blade – if we accept that sharpening requires thinning the blade by grinding the bevel. For example, we may choose to sharpen a knife at 30 degrees (15 degrees per side) creating a millimeter wide bevel and then maintain the cutting ability of the knife by steeling at 20 degrees per side (40 degrees inclusive) to form a micro-bevel.
——————————

What Does Steeling Do? Part 1

It is a common misconception that steeling does not remove metal, but simply “re-aligns the edge.”

scienceofsharp.com

 

[Uncle-A]

Not only electron microscope photos, but on this site he cuts blades with a beam to see the cross sections.

————————————
It is a common misconception that steeling does not remove metal, but simply “re-aligns the edge.” I have shown that re-alignment is one of the four results of stropping in What Does Stropping Do? However, in my experience this type of re-alignment rarely occurs. In the vast majority of cases, the steel near the apex is too damaged to be straightened, and instead simply breaks away rather than realign…


In simple terms, steeling primarily produces a micro-bevel. To be consistent with these definitions, steeling does not sharpen the blade – if we accept that sharpening requires thinning the blade by grinding the bevel. For example, we may choose to sharpen a knife at 30 degrees (15 degrees per side) creating a millimeter wide bevel and then maintain the cutting ability of the knife by steeling at 20 degrees per side (40 degrees inclusive) to form a micro-bevel.
——————————

What Does Steeling Do? Part 1

It is a common misconception that steeling does not remove metal, but simply “re-aligns the edge.”

scienceofsharp.com

Learn something new every day. Thanks for sharing.

 

[dbostedo]

Not only electron microscope photos, but on this site he cuts blades with a beam to see the cross sections.

————————————
It is a common misconception that steeling does not remove metal, but simply “re-aligns the edge.” I have shown that re-alignment is one of the four results of stropping in What Does Stropping Do? However, in my experience this type of re-alignment rarely occurs. In the vast majority of cases, the steel near the apex is too damaged to be straightened, and instead simply breaks away rather than realign…


In simple terms, steeling primarily produces a micro-bevel. To be consistent with these definitions, steeling does not sharpen the blade – if we accept that sharpening requires thinning the blade by grinding the bevel. For example, we may choose to sharpen a knife at 30 degrees (15 degrees per side) creating a millimeter wide bevel and then maintain the cutting ability of the knife by steeling at 20 degrees per side (40 degrees inclusive) to form a micro-bevel.
——————————

What Does Steeling Do? Part 1

It is a common misconception that steeling does not remove metal, but simply “re-aligns the edge.”

scienceofsharp.com

Neat! Changes what I think is going on when "steeling".

 

[James]

Neat! Changes what I think is going on when "steeling".

You just need to be careful when he talks about the edge “breaking off”. It can be quite small. As the sem photos show, it can still be quite sharp. Things look different at multiples of 1000x enlargement.

Generally, steeling isn’t recommended for hard steels like most Japanese blades. But probably a steel with no teeth would be ok to burnish or micro bevel the edge.

I wish Cliff Stamp had teemed up with that guy. Stamp was a theoretical physicist who died rather young last year. He had some interesting thoughts on sharpening, and it’s crazy how simple he made it.

 

[Tony S]

For example, we may choose to sharpen a knife at 30 degrees (15 degrees per side) creating a millimeter wide bevel and then maintain the cutting ability of the knife by steeling at 20 degrees per side (40 degrees inclusive) to form a micro-bevel.

Yeah, I'm back to your water stones posts, because - looping back to post #1 - my fancy new Japanese style knife is not responding satisfactorily to my standard unmentionable caveman sharpening (not honing) regime. It works okay for my Euro-style knives, but not as well for this knife. I imagine I need to reduce the bevel angle. At least that's what I'm going to try next, once I get the stones in house and practice on something cheaper.

 

[Tony S]

Still haven’t got the vegetable knife! Did get landlord permission to install a magnetic bar though so it’s coming soon…

View attachment 176394

Verdict on the Tojiro bread slicer: love it. takes a little patience for it to bite but cuts so much more cleanly with less waste once it’s in there. Pictured here with a 65% hydration white sourdough that’ll be a friend’s birthday present this afternoon.

Did you bake that? Very pretty.

 

[LiquidFeet]

View attachment 177259
Broiled green zebra tomatoes, garlic sourdough toast, gazpacho aioli.

Who cooked that? Enticing.