Lange girl posters - Deb Armstrong

[pchewn]

as an athlete, I want athletes to be celebrated for their skills and smarts, not their boobs and butt.

Yes to this. I'm interested in the athlete's performance, not how pretty or hansom they are. In a similar vein, I don't want to hear their opinion on politics, global warming, police reform, etc.... Just because they are a good athlete does not make their opinion better, or make me want to see them semi-nude.

If I want to look at semi-nude or fully nude bodies there are plenty of internet sites for that -- and if I do : I don't care how good or bad an athlete the person is.

 

[Tricia]

I want athletes to be celebrated for their skills and smarts, not their boobs and butt.

Like you, I'm not seeking opportunities to be offended and while I'm not offended by much, I agree with this 100%

I also wonder if my thinking is different than many because I didn't have children of my own and I'm not experiencing things that women like you are with daughters in college facing things I can't imagine.

 

[François Pugh]

Being a great athlete and being intelligent are not mutually exclusive; neither are being a great athlete and having an attractive body. IMHO, it's a shame that our culture somehow makes celebrating attractive bodies a bad thing.

 

[Tricia]

IMHO, it's a shame that our culture somehow makes celebrating attractive bodies a bad thing.

It would be different if we could celebrate all that is good about us without being subjected to the diminishing side of it and/or the negatives when something isn't perfect.

Is a female athlete anything less than an amazing athlete when they pose in scantily clad images?

 

[SBrown]

I also wonder if my thinking is different than many because I didn't have children of my own and I'm not experiencing things that women like you are with daughters in college facing things I can't imagine.

This is definitely on my mind. And one reason I can't say all the things that I want to say, in a public forum. Luckily my daughter has made it through most of these things mostly unscathed, but so much with her friends and roommates ... Roommates who were all amazing skiers and competitors and women and all that stuff, but suffered a lot with body image problems when they should have been celebrated for their accomplishments and just their SELVES.

 

[graham418]

It would be different if we could celebrate all that is good about us without being subjected to the diminishing side of it and/or the negatives when something isn't perfect.

Is a female athlete anything less than an amazing athlete when they pose in scantily clad images?

Are we not saying the same thing, only different?
What if it were a male athlete , top of his game , with a rocking' bod. Could that not be appreciated for what it was?

 

[Rainbow Jenny]

Please expand on this if you care to. We're talking about the Lange ad right?

Yes, my comment was on the Lange sexist ads. Everyone IS entitled her/his opinion; those opinions often reflect the person's age, ethnicity, and other strongly held beliefs.

I hope @Rainbow Jenny can post about what she thinks is hostile. Disagreement doesn't have to be hostile. If I have contributed to her perception of a hostile environment, I'd like to know and understand the POV because that was not my intention nor does anything on here look hostile to me. Edit: and it would be valuable input going forward to try and appear less hostile if she is referring to any of my posts.

I'm not suggesting this Pugski discussion thread is hostile at all, I'm referring to the Elite Skiers' FB comments on Deb's video.

@Tricia , @SBrown is much more articulate than I am on this subject matter and I applaud her. It's honestly just tiresome for me to process some comments here though. Perhaps I'm just not tough enough for this social media stuff.

 

[tch]

As Steve has reiterated, original video's point was about the way our society trades in, encourages, and passes down gender stereotypes. Whether it's Lange girls or TikTok or the popular music machine, I don't think there is really any question that women are objectified and pushed into a role that focuses on their sex appeal.

And as for her and other women's feelings that far too much of that imagery -- and even discussion of this topic -- creates a hostile and demeaning environment... WE DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHAT IS HOSTILE AND DEMEANING FOR THEM. We can listen to this point of view or we can ignore it -- but we don't get to deny it.

From my perspective, too many posts here seem to be attempting to somehow obscure or deflect from those two truths.

 

[Tricia]

Yes, my comment was on the Lange sexist ads. Everyone IS entitled her/his opinion; those opinions often reflect the person's age, ethnicity, and other strongly held beliefs.


I'm not suggesting this Pugski discussion thread is hostile at all, I'm referring to the Elite Skiers' FB comments on Deb's video.

@Tricia , @SBrown is much more articulate than I am on this subject matter and I applaud her. It's honestly just tiresome for me to process some comments here though. Perhaps I'm just not tough enough for this social media stuff.

Thank you for your input.
My hope for this site is that we don't need to be tough enough for this kind of discussion, but open and intellectual.

 

[Steve]

@Steve did a damn good job of explaining my position on this in post 63. Perhaps some of you could ponder that for a minute or two without having to immediately reply with But Beyonce! But WAP! But this! But that!

I guess those men’s consciousness raising groups I went to in 1970 paid off.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....@Tricia , @SBrown is much more articulate than I am on this subject matter and I applaud her. It's honestly just tiresome for me to process some comments here though. Perhaps I'm just not tough enough for this social media stuff.

You are strong enough, you are not too sensitive, and those in power are not going to delete your posts for causing trouble. Your voice is making a difference. Don't give up!

 

[crgildart]

You are strong enough, you are not too sensitive, and those in power are not going to delete your posts for causing trouble. Your voice is making a difference. Don't give up!

+1. There are likely many others with the same feelings.. Until those sentiments are expressed, they can't influence others unaware of the impact of their actions. I definitely want to know if something I said or did hurt others deeply so I can adjust and adapt to the changing social climate. We don't really need to walk a mile in someone else's shoes if they can tell us enough about their own journeys to understand their point of view and empathize with it.

 

[bbinder]

This is a great discussion. As the father of two daughters, I have a lot of thoughts on this matter. I am thinking of how to express them ... I may need to take some time to sort them all out before putting them out here. The essence is trying to reconcile the conflict between my cerebrum and my amygdala.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Deb's video is about the cumulative influence on growing girl's minds of marketing images that feature near-naked, fit, young women in ski gear. As girls grow up they get used to seeing how popular culture, including ski culture, uses young women this way. I don't think she mentions pop music or fashion, but it definitely plays a part in this sexualization of young women.

Deb points out that growing girls cannot help but see that this pervasive way of viewing young women (as near-naked fit bodies in sexualized poses) is normal. These women are not being celebrated for their contributions to the culture, their talents, their creativity. They are being celebrated for the shape of their bodies. Girls' initial confusion about this retreats with familiarity, and they all too often begin to want to be like those women as they enter the post-pubescent world.

Her point is that this progression is not good. She wants her viewers to work eliminate this impact on growing girls within the ski world. Girls' minds are the future. They need to look forward to being valued as doers whose accomplishments are rewarded, not as objects to be seen whose bodies are their capital.

Our culture needs to value women for their actual contributions. Does it? How many books by women does your book club read per year? How many textbooks you've had to study feature the groundbreaking work of women in their histories of their various disciplines? How many women's names did you have to memorize in school and spit back on tests because of their impact in that domain?

This issue is not just about personal feelings or sexual harassment or eating disorders or workplace discrimination, although those things are a deeply related. It's about everything associated with living while female in our culture.

Arguments against what Deb is saying that are based on the complicity of women in such marketing do not hold water. Those women are the evidence of damage done.

 

[Tony S]

The essence is trying to reconcile the conflict between my cerebrum and my amygdala.

 

[AmyPJ]

Having a daughter definitely changes the lens I look through some.

Yep.

As Steve has reiterated, original video's point was about the way our society trades in, encourages, and passes down gender stereotypes. Whether it's Lange girls or TikTok or the popular music machine, I don't think there is really any question that women are objectified and pushed into a role that focuses on their sex appeal.

And as for her and other women's feelings that far too much of that imagery -- and even discussion of this topic -- creates a hostile and demeaning environment... WE DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHAT IS HOSTILE AND DEMEANING FOR THEM. We can listen to this point of view or we can ignore it -- but we don't get to deny it.

From my perspective, too many posts here seem to be attempting to somehow obscure or deflect from those two truths.

^^^ My thoughts focus on the bigger picture, not just the Lange ads, which are/were a "symptom of the issue" so to speak. That's Deb's whole point--not just the Lange ads, but what they represent as a society in general, and how confusing they are to girls who are at the age where they start noticing this type of objectification more.

Our society as a whole puts more value on a woman's looks/sex appeal than anything else. Having a daughter, especially one who DOESN'T follow social norms, makes a person much more aware of this. I have found myself telling her to change into the other shirt/pants/tennis skirt because it's cuter. Then I kick myself. She likes wearing "boys" clothes, particularly because they are baggy and more comfortable. She has disliked pink since she was about 6 years old. Social norms, including unwritten dress code, are confusing and frankly stupid to her. She got reprimanded at school last year for wearing a pair of shorts that hit mid-thigh. Finding girls shorts that fit her tiny waist that are also "long enough" is nearly impossible. Again, what message is that sending to young girls that they should be hiding themselves on the one hand, yet should be "showing off" so to speak, like models, performers, and yes, athletes do?

 

[crgildart]

Deb points out that growing girls cannot help but see that this pervasive way of viewing young women (as near-naked fit bodies in sexualized poses) is normal. These women are not being celebrated for their contributions to the culture, their talents, their creativity. They are being celebrated for the shape of their bodies. Girls' initial confusion about this retreats with familiarity, and they all too often begin to want to be like those women as they enter the post-pubescent world.

This is true to the extent that's the only influence these young girls are exposed to. It's really only one hopefully shrinking portion of that overall picture of all media exposures. Is it getting worse or better than it was then? I don't know. I do remember how groundbreaking this ad was.. Yet still, I thought the mom/wife/provider was quite hot. I think I was about 13 when I first saw it.. It is the same vintage as the Lange Girl posters. I'd like to hear what the women here thought when they saw it back then. assiming they are old enough to remember it. If not, what about the younger folks' opinion? Surprised or not that a perfume company played that angle??

And yes, I realize they still portrayed the female as the housewife, responsible for all the cooking and cleaning etc..

 

[Eric@ict]

This is definitely on my mind. And one reason I can't say all the things that I want to say, in a public forum. Luckily my daughter has made it through most of these things mostly unscathed, but so much with her friends and roommates ... Roommates who were all amazing skiers and competitors and women and all that stuff, but suffered a lot with body image problems when they should have been celebrated for their accomplishments and just their SELVES.

How much of the lack of self worth is because of the sexuality that is seen in advertising and hip hop, (to pick on an industry) or something missing in their upbringing at home? I ask because I have 3 grown daughters who were all athletes in HS and 2 who continued into their college years. Who, like your daughter seem to not have it impact them at a level they acknowledge to either of the parents. Today, they are strong confident women raising their kids.

 

[LiquidFeet]

These images have an impact on how men treat women as well, individual men, and men in charge among other men in charge.

How many of these daughters who have grown up seemingly unimpacted by the body thing have had encounters with men who see them as bodies to touch and nothing else? Or who have had encounters indicating that as workers their value is less that of men in the same job?

 

[Rainbow Jenny]

Our culture needs to value women for their actual contributions. Does it? How many books by women does your book club read per year? How many textbooks you've had to study feature the groundbreaking work of women in their histories of their various disciplines? How many women's names did you have to memorize in school and spit back on tests because of their impact in that domain?

Thanks for your encouragement, @LiquidFeet. I have to remind myself to actively seek out more women authored books. Furthermore, I consciously changed my recent Facebook posting from a male to a female performer of the same piece of music.

I also am involved in a school's biennial lecture series and have been thinking of requesting for a women speaker since the first three have all been men.