Intermediate vs Advanced Skiing

[Kneale Brownson]

Intermediates make turns. Advanced skiers flow down the hill.

 

[slowrider]

Intermediates park & ride. Advanced riders turn shape.

 

[KevinF]

Wtf is a 2b?

There's a Shakespeare pun in here somewhere...

 

[Coach13]

It's nice that we have the entire rest of our lives to work on it. I like to think it's good that skiing is hard, if it was easy then being good at it wouldn't mean anything.

I’m in this sport just for the fun and certainly not from a competitive standpoint like my other sports. But...I enjoy working to get better and the better I get, the more fun I have.

 

[Coach13]

Intermediates park & ride. Advanced riders turn shape.

That’s one factor I notice in better skiers and try to be cognizant of in my own skiing. That is, being fluid and not static when I ski.

 

[Mike King]

I’m in this sport just for the fun and certainly not from a competitive standpoint like my other sports. But...I enjoy working to get better and the better I get, the more fun I have.

Me too. And the better I get, the more I understand how much more I have to learn.

 

[Seldomski]

@Coach13

I think that 'terminal intermediate' skiers get stuck on the Infinity Move. They can do the bottom half of the turn, where the body is above the feet on the hill, but at transition they don't allow the body to cross over the feet.

 

[Mike King]

@Coach13

I think that 'terminal intermediate' skiers get stuck on the Infinity Move. They can do the bottom half of the turn, where the body is above the feet on the hill, but at transition they don't allow the body to cross over the feet.

Rather than body cross over, perhaps it would be better to release the skis by flexing the old outside leg and tipping the ankles and lower leg under a stable upper body. Often crossing the body over the feet winds up in inclination rather than angulation, balanced on the inside rather than the outside foot, a loss of contact with the outside ski early in the turn, and maximum pressure late in the finishing phase of the turn.

 

[slowrider]

I believed that conditions play a roll in ability level. Like a sliding scale. Holloywood on a easy groomer & jerry of the day in a steep icy bump feild. This is where the true expert is undaunted.

 

[JESinstr]

@Coach13

I think that 'terminal intermediate' skiers get stuck on the Infinity Move. They can do the bottom half of the turn, where the body is above the feet on the hill, but at transition they don't allow the body to cross over the feet.

Quite the contrary. It is the intermediate's reliance on bracing against the straight line force of gravity vs the continuance of the turning force that is the issue. IMO.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Coach13

I think that 'terminal intermediate' skiers get stuck on the Infinity Move. They can do the bottom half of the turn, where the body is above the feet on the hill, but at transition they don't allow the body to cross over the feet.

The infinity move requires that the skier bring the feet back up under the body in the second half of the turn, starting at the fall line. This takes care of the initiation; the position of the CoM ends up below the feet on the hill, and voila one is in the new turn by default. I learned the infinity move (sideways figure eight in my mind) by manipulating my feet in the second half of the turn. There is no initiation involved if the feet are brought far enough back up under the body in the bottom of the turn. Thus Bob Barnes' phrase: the "Do Nothing" turn initiation.

 

[Seldomski]

I agree with you all, just going to drop this here:

 

[KingGrump]

The infinity move requires that the skier bring the feet back up under the body in the second half of the turn, starting at the fall line.

My understanding of the "infinity move" is that it is more of a concept more than a technique. It describes how the body (big hunk of meat) follows a "slower", straighter (tighter) line while the skis takes a "faster", more round about line when the skier moves down the hill.

The relative merge and unmerge of the ski and the hunk of meat can be cross-over, cross-under, combo of the two and/or something entirely different.
Like in construction. The means and method is up to the contractor/skier.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I see no conflict there.

 

[Doby Man]

@LiquidFeet, would you agree that the rocking pattern that you thread started about in the off season is half of the infinity move? Fore-aft BoS displacement from the CoM. Ball of foot/shovel pressure in turn phase one migrating to rear arch/heel/tail pressure in turn phase three of each turn. A lot of skiers on the newer shaped skis seem to ski from only one fore/aft spot or, sweet spot, because the shaped ski allows it and therefore, the rocking pattern seems to have been even more isolated to higher skill levels. Therefore, the infinity pattern may be only relevant to those skiers who perform this motor pattern, which are very few. Also, it is neither really a concept or a technique as KG otherwise keenly suggests but just something that describes the path of the feet relative to the CoM.

 

[Coach13]

OK, so what's an "advanced intermediate"?

I’d love to hear your take on this, in terms of skills required at this level.

 

[Mike King]

I’d love to hear your take on this, in terms of skills required at this level.

Level 6-7 from the chart above.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@LiquidFeet, would you agree that the rocking pattern that you thread started about in the off season is half of the infinity move? Fore-aft BoS displacement from the CoM. Ball of foot/shovel pressure in turn phase one migrating to rear arch/heel/tail pressure in turn phase three of each turn. A lot of skiers on the newer shaped skis seem to ski from only one fore/aft spot or, sweet spot, because the shaped ski allows it and therefore, the rocking pattern seems to have been even more isolated to higher skill levels. Therefore, the infinity pattern may be only relevant to those skiers who perform this motor pattern, which are very few. Also, it is neither really a concept or a technique as KG otherwise keenly suggests but just something that describes the path of the feet relative to the CoM.

Doby, in my experience, I've found that the rocking is optional. Underfoot pressure can stay at the back of the arch for this whole thing. But the skier can also do the rocking from ball of foot to front of heel if moving pressure from shovel to tail is desired. I do that with incompleted turns in a very narrow corridor, doing a narrow sideways figure eight under me. I've found that the forward "scoop" of the skis in these turns makes them grip the snow better in these turns, even though the skis stay rather flattish. I'm guessing whether someone"rocks" or not depends on where they want to direct pressure on the skis when skiing a particular line. ...There's also the issue of moving the outside ski forward at the very bottom of the turn if the tail wants to wash, but if you pull the feet up under you, that doesn't happen (dare I mention platform angle here?).

Stills below are from Bob's animation.

1. Feet point down the fall line, out to the side of the CoM.


2. Feet are now at the apex of turn, below the CoM on the hill.


3. Feet are being pulled back up towards the body.


4. Feet have been pulled up under the body;
this releases the CoM to travel along the line determined by its momentum.


5. CoM has crossed over feet and is now below them on the hill;
this configuration tips skis onto new edges and starts the new turn.

 

[Uncle Louie]

@Coach13

I think that 'terminal intermediate' skiers get stuck on the Infinity Move. They can do the bottom half of the turn, where the body is above the feet on the hill, but at transition they don't allow the body to cross over the feet.

I agree, but it's not that they don't "allow the body to cross over", it's that they don't have the edging skills (and / or pressure skills) to accomplish that.

The "terminal Intermediate" usually has limited ability to properly edge the ski. Lower level skiers stand ON THE SKI (flat), upper level skiers usually (there are exceptions) stand AGAINST THE SKI (edged) . Standing against the ski requires the skier to allow the COM to move outside of the base of support. (Polygon of Sustentation- Post 25). Since Intermediates and lower levels use more steering and pressure than edging and pressure it's a natural result.

Anyone having trouble with the Infinity Move would be a person who begins to start a turn by steering, but may develop and edge naturally once they pass the fall line (or apex) where the edge of the ski MAY engage due to the skiers position vs the pitch of the hill until the next transition where it all starts over.

One can't effectively get the skis out from under the body without the ability to produce and hold a sufficient edge. If one doesn't have this skill how they transition into the next turn is meaningless.

 

[KevinF]

@LiquidFeet from the perspective of a stationary COM (as depicted in Bob’s video), yes the feet move towards the body.

In reality, we are moving. So is it the feet being pulled towards the body? Or does the body cross the feet? Does it matter which crosses which?

I can make turns where I feel like my feet are steered under my COM and vice versa. My take on Bob’s “infinity” video is that the COM and the feet need to cross at turn transition.., but which goes over (under) the other depends on what your frame of reference is.

I’ve always hated the “cross over / under” terminology for that reason.