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markojp

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Hence Mark's post #124.

For those of us that are on snow 100+ days per season. It's more about efficiency rather than aesthetics. Carving is only the beginning.

I'm guessing we're seeing very different terrain in our minds eye as well. Taos, Crystal, etc....

I'd also say more efficient skiing is great for 10-20 day a season skiers specifically because they won't have super high levels of ski fitness .
 
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Coach13

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I'd also say more efficient skiing is great for 10-20 day a season skiers specifically because they won't have super high levels of ski fitness .

No question that’s correct in my mind. The flip side though is imo it’s not easy to reach and maintain those levels of efficient performance skiing only 10-20 days a season.
 

Wilhelmson

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3. In the moguls, intermediate techniques do not allow the skier to maintain a rapid rhythm in balance. They still can get through the bumps pretty well though, just they have to miss turns every now and then and go slower. However, that's generally what many advanced instructors do as well with their technique, so I think we'd have a hard time around here making a case that it matters much.

That's part of the problem; if the judges judged each other the expert line would get fuzzy. If keeping up with a 100+ day bump skier in Taos is a the test of expert skiing that's a pretty high bar for a lot of people

It gives you access to terrain that an intermediate cannot safely negotiate. Steeps, steep trees, moguls.

Ok, but what has been argued here is that the ability to ski this type of terrain safely and in control is secondary to how it is done.
 

Mike King

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Ok, but what has been argued here is that the ability to ski this type of terrain safely and in control is secondary to how it is done.
Well, if you don't have a reliable release move and ability to control the ski, you can't ski that terrain safely and in control. You may be able to make one turn at a time, but that isn't skiing the terrain. And while one turn at a time might be ok if the slope is 50 degrees over a 1000 foot vertical with cliff bands, trees, and other features that impinge on safety (e.g, ski mountaineering), it isn't really skiing.

I can point you to all sorts of terrain that someone with intermediate skills should not ski. At Highlands, Mushroom -- a tight tree run with steeps that approach 45 degrees, the P chutes, Deception, No Name, most anything in Oly bowl or Temerity. At Snowmass, Gowdy's, the Dikes, Possible, the West Wall,. At Big Sky, the Big Couloir, the North Summit Snowfield, the Dictator Chutes, most anything off of Headwaters. At Jackson, Tower 3, Paintbrush, Hoop's Gap, the Alta Chutes, the Expert Chutes, the Crags, anything out of bounds, and much more. Almost all of the Alpine terrain at Whistler Blackcomb. etc. etc. etc.

Simply put, you've got it backwards -- advanced technique is what gives you the ability to ski this type of terrain safely and in control.

Mike
 

skier

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I'm guessing we're seeing very different terrain in our minds eye as well. Taos, Crystal, etc....

I'd also say more efficient skiing is great for 10-20 day a season skiers specifically because they won't have super high levels of ski fitness .

I've never skied at Taos, but Crystal Mountain, WA was my home mountain for a little while and having skied many places all around the country, I consider Crystal to have some of the toughest terrain around, and I've seen intermediates handle all the in bounds, marked, terrain there without any problems.

On another point, I'm not very impressed with efficiency being the sole guide for advanced skiing. I find the lowest energy mode for getting down a hill to be boring and not very full of skill for lots of slopes. I can ski everyday of the year, black diamonds as easily as walking, but I wouldn't call it advanced skiing. I've heard some people talk about skidding as taking lots of energy, but I don't know what they are smoking, because there is a very low energy method of skidding that doesn't take much skill and is as easy as standing. Now, with that said, once the snow gets deep enough, and the skis get skinny enough, skidding like that doesn't work so well, and then I don't see a low energy path that doesn't use lots of skill.
 

slowrider

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Hmmm intermediate local. Would a JH intermediate local be the same as a MW intermediate local?
 

mdf

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On another point, I'm not very impressed with efficiency being the sole guide for advanced skiing

Well, I do find it a little disingenuous when "efficiency" is help up as a supposedly objective standard, rather than admitting that skiing style is an aesthetic preference. That said, I usually prefer the "efficient movements" on aesthetic grounds. So maybe it is a distinction without a difference.

On the other hand, I do throw in an inefficient, high-energy pitch now and then. Short turns as fast as I can down the fall line, or an aggressive line in the bumps. It is a minority of my runs, though, and even then I sometimes throw in a few big flow-y turns in the middle to rest.

On the third hand, I do have evidence that getting tired out limits people's skiing when they are at the intermediate vs advanced boundary. At one of the JH Steep and Deep camps (the middle one, so my group and I still sucked pretty bad) on the third day everyone else gave up at lunch and the afternoon was just me and my instructor.

(A disclaimer, too: I have skied with several of the posters in this thread. Even when I try to be efficient, I wind up breathing a lot harder than they do.)
 

Seldomski

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Certainly, we all may have different things in mind when thinking about intermediate skiing, thus this thread is relevant. But, these skiers I'm talking about are clearly intermediate. If I posted video, we'd all agree, though I wouldn't do that and embarrass anyone. Carving is a big part of it, but what's clear about their skiing is that their turns are not initiated by tipping, they turn primarily with twisting, and they have very bad separation. Here's the thing. How far can those techniques take you? I'll look at their skiing, and think, wow, they suck, but then as they follow me around the mountain all day, and they are effective, it blows away my impressions of what matters.

This is why skiing is so awesome - you can have fun at any skill level on the hill.
 

cantunamunch

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No question that’s correct in my mind. The flip side though is imo it’s not easy to reach and maintain those levels of efficient performance skiing only 10-20 days a season.

This is where a self-consistent, progressive, structural framework of exercises, repeated each season, is absolutely invaluable.
 

Steve

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This has been an interesting thread and my takeaway is that yes, on groomed runs - as @skier says, intermediate technique can get people by fine. I think to be considered an Advanced (the old Level 8) skier that you need to be able to ski in 3D snow. Powder, crud, and at the minimum smallish bumps.

The "good" technique we all strive for (and argue about) gets us there. There are many styles of this "good"ness, but the dividing line to me is being able to ski well off of the groomed.
 

SSSdave

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Thread has gone way off on tangents vesrus OP of "Can any of the many instructors or experienced skiers here define the difference between being an intermediate and an advanced skier?".

Oh and there are plenty of truly expert places at western resorts where even most otherwise advanced skiers like this person, much less intermediates haha, are not going to be able to "get down" because they won't even go down as they will be way way too scared after simply looking over the edge at what is below.
 

James

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Simply put, you've got it backwards -- advanced technique is what gives you the ability to ski this type of terrain safely and in control.

I don't know, years ago skiing with Bob Peters at Alta he stopped to help a woman wedge turning in a foot of cut up powder on an advanced trail. No huge fat skis as this was 2003. How she got there was beyond me as it was near the end and was no simple matter. It was def not intermediate terrain but not real steep.

At Big Sky in 2009 there were people wedge turning on fat skis in pow down one of the less steep Headwater chutes at Moonlight Basin. Still near 40deg.
Mikaela, Lorraine Huber, Sebastien Michel, etc...
Since Mikaela's zipper bump skills are questionable, like Bode's, they are merely advanced level skiers. Not expert. :rolleyes:.... :snowball:
 

François Pugh

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I agree with Skier, in that you don't have to be advanced to have fun skiing or to "get down" "expert terrain".

Also from a visual perspective, when I see someone skiing with little to no separation and twisting their skis to a steering angle using momentum from their upper body to get the skis turning, instead of tipping and having the legs turn/move beneath them, I naturally place them at a level below advanced. If I know this person, I have a strong desire to get them to ski "better". However, at least one person I know who skis like this is quite happy and can get down any runs in resorts in eastern Canada without difficulties, and doesn't seem to be interested in learning how to carve clean turns and acquire a level of skiing with good separation. I know, right? How can someone not want to ski faster with higher g-forces and better control? Different strokes for different folks:huh:.

Also, looking back at my own development, I very quickly learned to tip my skis and bend my skis early on, but separation took much longer to learn. I was definitely not an expert, but was skiing all eastern runs (for reference anything on the trail map at Tremblant and Jay Peak) at high speeds with ease, despite my lack of angulation and counter rotation, and only a little better than that when skiing narrow steep chutes/cliffs with lots of mandatory air and half a dozen danger/death/no trespassing signs to dissuade people from going anywhere near them. I had developed my poor form to a high degree, compensating for poor form and poor technique with high balance skill, high strength, and quick reaction time.

However I disagree in the reason for learning to ski better. It's not to look better for the chair lift audience; it's because the better you get the more fun it is.

As to the powder/ice/crud/bump requirements for "expert" ; it's just a matter of what one is used to. If someone never saw powder, they could still be an "expert", despite still needing a few more days of learning to transition to being able to do a decent job skiing powder. I would consider anyone seriously into racing and with some experience racing an expert, despite the fact that many skiers could ski bumps better than they could. I expect I would still consider anyone who has been skiing 100 days per year for a few years in bumps an expert, even if they couldn't make it down a race course in half (EDIT: I MEANT TO SAY LESS THAN TWICE) the time it would take the average racer.
 
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skier

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However I disagree in the reason for learning to ski better. It's not to look better for the chair lift audience; it's because the better you get the more fun it is.

I agree with that too, the better I get, the more fun it is.
 

markojp

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I agree with Skier, in that you don't have to be advanced to have fun skiing or to "get down" "expert terrain".

I think skier willfully misinterpreted what was said as absolutely no one claimed there's only one way to get down or have fun on expert terrain. I could care absolultely less about how anyone gets down the hill so long as they don't pose a danger to others. We all most likely enjoy skiing at different rates and intensities during a typical day. If one is fortunate enough to ski many consecutive days, some will be hard charging, others more cruisy. Sometime you just run out of gas and need a rest day. My only comment was that over time, when you look at the old dudes and dudettes that are still skiing expert terrain with great frequency is that they generally move more efficiently because they have less physical strength than they had as young men and women, yet they can still ski bell to bell in tough terrain. That's all. It really doesn't seem to be anything worth arguing about.
 

markojp

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I've never skied at Taos, but Crystal Mountain, WA was my home mountain for a little while and having skied many places all around the country, I consider Crystal to have some of the toughest terrain around, and I've seen intermediates handle all the in bounds, marked, terrain there without any problems.

On another point, I'm not very impressed with efficiency being the sole guide for advanced skiing. I find the lowest energy mode for getting down a hill to be boring and not very full of skill for lots of slopes. I can ski everyday of the year, black diamonds as easily as walking, but I wouldn't call it advanced skiing. I've heard some people talk about skidding as taking lots of energy, but I don't know what they are smoking, because there is a very low energy method of skidding that doesn't take much skill and is as easy as standing. Now, with that said, once the snow gets deep enough, and the skis get skinny enough, skidding like that doesn't work so well, and then I don't see a low energy path that doesn't use lots of skill.

Yes, it's true. Intermediates are able navigate all over most western ski areas. Modern gear technology is great! If they're happy and having fun, awesome!

But tell me, what do you think 'efficiency' is? I have a hunch we're talking past each other. As said before, Mikaela is efficient. Lorraine Huber is efficient. Bob Barnes is efficient... Now tell me that you aren't able to look up the hill and finding joy in seeing that person who just flows down like water and makes it look effortless. Chances are that person isn't even for an instant pondering what you or I think of their skiing while they're in the act.
 

KingGrump

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But tell me, what do you think 'efficiency' is? I have a hunch we're talking past each other. As said before, Mikaela is efficient. Lorraine Huber is efficient. Bob Barnes is efficient... Now tell me that you aren't able to look up the hill and finding joy in seeing that person who just flows down like water and makes it look effortless. Chances are that person isn't even for an instant pondering what you or I think of their skiing while they're in the act.

To me, efficiency is do more with less. If you got more within you then you can get a hell lot more done. :beercheer:
 

noncrazycanuck

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I've always thought the only difference is
an intermediate might think about what they about to ski
an advanced skier just skis it.
an expert does the same terrain and makes it look pretty
 
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