As someone who describes himself as a terminal intermediate this is always in the forefront of my mind. Can any of the many instructors or experienced skiers here define the difference between being an intermediate and an advanced skier? I don’t mean in terms of published skier levels as you can find that on any ski school site or especially in terms of terrain a skier can get down. I’m wondering in terms of the various skills/charcterics you see in one level versus the next?
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Intermediate vs Advanced Skiing
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Generally speaking Intermediates can link parallel turns. Advanced skiers can do that on just about any terrain, and can arc-2-arc on most terrain (although they may choose not to out of caution). Also Advanced is what experts call themselves when trying not to boast.
Here's a web site that defines levels based on abilities and not just what you can get down: https://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/plan-your-trip/ski-and-ride-lessons/ability-charts.aspx
Here's a web site that defines levels based on abilities and not just what you can get down: https://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/plan-your-trip/ski-and-ride-lessons/ability-charts.aspx
Confidence.
I would say the number one thing is how to turn. Intermediates have a found a way of turning that can be effective for getting through a surprising number of situations, but many can't seem to recognize the difference between the way they turn and the way advanced skiers turn. It also seems to be incredibly hard for many to change once they settle into those movement patterns. Intermediates predominantly turn by twisting or initiating with the upper body. Advanced skiers predominantly turn by tipping and angulation and let the ski do most of the work.
Bingo, we have a winner.
You’re starting to get warm as to what I’m thinking establishes the difference. ie tipping vs twisting, upper and lower body separation, effective use of angulation, etc. I’m sure there are many others?
Exactly.
An advanced skier thinks he/she is much improved over an intermediate skier. The operative word here is "thinks". The skiing is the same. The advanced skier just thinks he/she is better. Head game at its best.
Disclaimer: Still trying to come to term with this new-fangled level of "advanced". "Advanced" wasn't one of the skier skill levels when I was growing old.
Most lists of skier ability have 9 levels. In the list below from Bob Barnes, green represents beginner/novice, blue is intermediate, and black is advanced/expert. This descriptors include terrain choices, mention of whether or not the skis stay parallel and whether or not the skier uses the poles, and a little about the skier's assertiveness and confidence on varied terrain and conditions. My take on this list is that the shift from "intermediate" to "advanced" (vague terms at best) happens somewhere between 6/7 and 7/8. An "advanced" skier would be at levels 7/8, and "expert" would be at levels 8/9. Others may disagree.
The jump from 6 to 7 is rather big given the descriptors on this list. Level 7 involves turn mechanics that are fundamental to good skiing but that many recreational skiers find elusive. The term "terminal intermediate" refers to this phenomenon.
Many of the arguments about how to teach beginners focus on how to teach them to ski without teaching them things that they will have to unlearn later. The goal is hopefully to teach the beginner how to ski in such a way that they can move past level 6 without having to purge deeply embedded bad habits.
Unfortunately those bad habits are pervasive. The good habits that they displace are hard to build once the baddies are in place.
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In my notes I have the following words from MichaelA, an instructor who used to post on EpicSki. He delineates what the turn mechanics are for levels 6/7 and 7/8. He gets into some of the issues of turn mechanics here, which I've made red. I always liked MichaelA's take on things.
I see Level 6 as already doing basic parallel, but still new to it...
- Having solid skills with Independent Leg Steering on easy Blue terrain
- Able to get skis tipped to (and beyond) 35-degrees (apex) on steeper Blue terrain
- Able to counter and angulate 90% appropriate to their turns on most Blue Terrain
- Having Fore/Aft issues 90% resolved on easy Blue terrain
- Linking short and medium radius Open-Parallel on easy groomed Blue terrain
- Making rounded Open-Parallel turns on groomed Blue terrain (not Z-to-Z braking)
- Having ventured into easy, groomed Black terrain at times
And working on...
- Better quality short and medium radius Open-Parallel turns on Blue terrain
- Linked Open-Parallel turns on groomed Black terrain
- Intro to easy off-piste (Green/Blue terrain)
- Beginning Blue Bumps and improving on those Bumps
- Intro to Dynamic-Parallel turn skills (primarily, moving with the skis using ski design more)
I see Level 7 as already countering/angulating with steered turns and some carving...
- Having solid skills with Independent Leg Steering on all Blue terrain, some Black terrain
- Able to get skis tipped to (and beyond) 45-degrees (apex) on most Blue terrain, some Black terrain
- Able to counter and angulate 90% appropriate to their turns on ALL Blue Terrain
- Having Fore/Aft issues 90% resolved on ALL Blue terrain
- Having Fore/Aft issues 80% resolved on easy Black terrain
- Linking short and medium radius Open-Parallel turns on groomed Black terrain
- Making rounded Open-Parallel turns on groomed Black terrain
- Having ventured into true Black terrain at times
- Possessing the skill to ride the ski's sidecut on Green and easy Blue terrain (easy carving)
And is now working on...
- Implementing short and medium radius Dynamic-Parallel turns on Blue terrain
- Linking short radius Dynamic-Parallel turns on groomed Black terrain
- Implementing Dynamic-Parallel in easy off-piste (Green/Blue terrain)
- Improving on Blue Bumps and trying out easy Black Bumps
- Higher edge-angles overall as appropriate
- Better Fore/aft balance in steeper terrain and bumps
- Shorter, quicker short radius and Short Swing turns
- Intro to One-Ski skiing, Downhill-Skating, traversing steep terrain
The jump from 6 to 7 is rather big given the descriptors on this list. Level 7 involves turn mechanics that are fundamental to good skiing but that many recreational skiers find elusive. The term "terminal intermediate" refers to this phenomenon.
Many of the arguments about how to teach beginners focus on how to teach them to ski without teaching them things that they will have to unlearn later. The goal is hopefully to teach the beginner how to ski in such a way that they can move past level 6 without having to purge deeply embedded bad habits.
Unfortunately those bad habits are pervasive. The good habits that they displace are hard to build once the baddies are in place.
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In my notes I have the following words from MichaelA, an instructor who used to post on EpicSki. He delineates what the turn mechanics are for levels 6/7 and 7/8. He gets into some of the issues of turn mechanics here, which I've made red. I always liked MichaelA's take on things.
I see Level 6 as already doing basic parallel, but still new to it...
- Having solid skills with Independent Leg Steering on easy Blue terrain
- Able to get skis tipped to (and beyond) 35-degrees (apex) on steeper Blue terrain
- Able to counter and angulate 90% appropriate to their turns on most Blue Terrain
- Having Fore/Aft issues 90% resolved on easy Blue terrain
- Linking short and medium radius Open-Parallel on easy groomed Blue terrain
- Making rounded Open-Parallel turns on groomed Blue terrain (not Z-to-Z braking)
- Having ventured into easy, groomed Black terrain at times
And working on...
- Better quality short and medium radius Open-Parallel turns on Blue terrain
- Linked Open-Parallel turns on groomed Black terrain
- Intro to easy off-piste (Green/Blue terrain)
- Beginning Blue Bumps and improving on those Bumps
- Intro to Dynamic-Parallel turn skills (primarily, moving with the skis using ski design more)
I see Level 7 as already countering/angulating with steered turns and some carving...
- Having solid skills with Independent Leg Steering on all Blue terrain, some Black terrain
- Able to get skis tipped to (and beyond) 45-degrees (apex) on most Blue terrain, some Black terrain
- Able to counter and angulate 90% appropriate to their turns on ALL Blue Terrain
- Having Fore/Aft issues 90% resolved on ALL Blue terrain
- Having Fore/Aft issues 80% resolved on easy Black terrain
- Linking short and medium radius Open-Parallel turns on groomed Black terrain
- Making rounded Open-Parallel turns on groomed Black terrain
- Having ventured into true Black terrain at times
- Possessing the skill to ride the ski's sidecut on Green and easy Blue terrain (easy carving)
And is now working on...
- Implementing short and medium radius Dynamic-Parallel turns on Blue terrain
- Linking short radius Dynamic-Parallel turns on groomed Black terrain
- Implementing Dynamic-Parallel in easy off-piste (Green/Blue terrain)
- Improving on Blue Bumps and trying out easy Black Bumps
- Higher edge-angles overall as appropriate
- Better Fore/aft balance in steeper terrain and bumps
- Shorter, quicker short radius and Short Swing turns
- Intro to One-Ski skiing, Downhill-Skating, traversing steep terrain
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So someone who can link parallel turns on difficult terrain but is still struggling with consistency/flaws in their technique is what, advanced intermediate?
After really focusing on trying to understand what I was doing this past weekend I think I may owe @mister moose an apology. Ego is not driving my describing myself as advanced; I've truly thought that I was but now I just don't know anymore. Give me groomed or chopped snow on a steep trail and I can link turns all day. Take that same trail and put east coast moguls on it and half the time I can ski it and the rest I'm in poor form. Put me on a big bump trail with soft bumps out west and no problems. Some of this is fitness but as @Josh Matta has recently commented, some of it is just bad skiing technique.
I know that labels don't really matter but I've been frustrated lately trying to figure out where I stand. In another thread I mentioned I'm going sign up for an all-day group lesson during my JH trip but I may take another one sooner. I hope the proposed Pugski academy happens...
Am at least level 8+ and never took lessons but read a lot. The most important two technique items I would say from this non instructor to separate intermediates and advanced skiers are:
Lower from upper body separation with upper body generally oriented down a fall line and body stack more perpendicular to the slope than gravity vertical.
At peak forces of turns are on or nearly fully standing centered on the loaded downhill ski while the uphill ski is comfortably unweighted reasonably close to slightly advanced of the weighted leg.
I taught myself to ski like that from my novice days. I taught an athletic climber friend to ski like that from his first day mostly skiing behind me and within a day or two was mostly at Level 5 without going through lower levels. I also was never able to teach a friend to ski like that who could never get past typical stiff upper/lower body twisting sliding skidding turns.
Lower from upper body separation with upper body generally oriented down a fall line and body stack more perpendicular to the slope than gravity vertical.
At peak forces of turns are on or nearly fully standing centered on the loaded downhill ski while the uphill ski is comfortably unweighted reasonably close to slightly advanced of the weighted leg.
I taught myself to ski like that from my novice days. I taught an athletic climber friend to ski like that from his first day mostly skiing behind me and within a day or two was mostly at Level 5 without going through lower levels. I also was never able to teach a friend to ski like that who could never get past typical stiff upper/lower body twisting sliding skidding turns.
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Level 9 discription includes "enticingly close to earning the title "expert"." I think that is why some skiers who many would call experts call themselves advanced; they know there is so much more to learn.
@TheArchitect I wouldn't worry too much about it. Most people overclassify themselves, so you should do likewise. Unless you want to be the best one in your group...
I agree competence leads to confidence, but.... , I see a lot of overterrained skiers/boarders running over others while out of control but feeling ever so "confident" that they "survived".
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Sadly, advanced could be separated by:
1)can sidestep up short quite steep pitch. Like a side bump. They don't open into a V near the end. They can also tip the uphill ski onto the uphill/little toe edge and stand on it.
2) Can sideslip in a corridor
I say sadly because #1 used to be a basic fundamental at level 1. Hell some people learned by spending the whole lesson on it and never turning.
If they pass those two, which frankly most intermediates fail, move on to:
3) Can do a flat spin on the snow.
If they can do 2) they're close to 3) but there's timing and body awareness.
So:
4) Link round turns on steep blue terrain. (Exceptions for Jackson double blues)
Obviously these are parallel turns.
The line they can ski takes them at near right angles to fall line or uphill.
In other words, can they actually ski a slow line? Even at slowish speed. Most "advanced" kids fail this. They'll ski quite fast by tipping skis or just twisting them left or right but it's a fast line without a real turn.
Terrain is really learned once someone has fundamentals. Some people with skills will never be comfortable. Many without skills are comfortable in terrain they really can't ski. Soft snow and fat skis help with that.
5) Would be bumps. This is a very gray area requiring more words than I have now. But at least get down a blue bump field.
1)can sidestep up short quite steep pitch. Like a side bump. They don't open into a V near the end. They can also tip the uphill ski onto the uphill/little toe edge and stand on it.
2) Can sideslip in a corridor
I say sadly because #1 used to be a basic fundamental at level 1. Hell some people learned by spending the whole lesson on it and never turning.
If they pass those two, which frankly most intermediates fail, move on to:
3) Can do a flat spin on the snow.
If they can do 2) they're close to 3) but there's timing and body awareness.
So:
4) Link round turns on steep blue terrain. (Exceptions for Jackson double blues)
Obviously these are parallel turns.
The line they can ski takes them at near right angles to fall line or uphill.
In other words, can they actually ski a slow line? Even at slowish speed. Most "advanced" kids fail this. They'll ski quite fast by tipping skis or just twisting them left or right but it's a fast line without a real turn.
Terrain is really learned once someone has fundamentals. Some people with skills will never be comfortable. Many without skills are comfortable in terrain they really can't ski. Soft snow and fat skis help with that.
5) Would be bumps. This is a very gray area requiring more words than I have now. But at least get down a blue bump field.
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Confidence through competence would have completed this thought.
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Looking at all the skiers coming down the slope, The advanced skier creates turns by:
- being consistently balanced through the arch of the foot.
- Tipping the skis by lifting the edges while the outside ski is still uphill of the inside ski.
- Building angulation through softening then actively shortening the inside leg
- Enhancing angulation by moving the com (Pelvis) to the inside of the turn separating upper and lower body at the hips. Any observed counter is a result, not and action.
How advanced a skier is depends on their ability to accomplish the above in increasingly difficult situations.
- being consistently balanced through the arch of the foot.
- Tipping the skis by lifting the edges while the outside ski is still uphill of the inside ski.
- Building angulation through softening then actively shortening the inside leg
- Enhancing angulation by moving the com (Pelvis) to the inside of the turn separating upper and lower body at the hips. Any observed counter is a result, not and action.
How advanced a skier is depends on their ability to accomplish the above in increasingly difficult situations.
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Accepted.
These levels are merely guides, people shouldn't take them so literally. Someone might be level 7 in some technique, but suck at powder and bumps. I know of several excellent bump skiers that don't ever carve a turn.
Some things no one has mentioned yet as an indicator of overall mastery is where in the turn is the edge change, is it simultaneous, and does the tipping occur after the edge change? Where in the turn does pressure transfer occur? Does the COM move, and where in the turn does that occur? Do the tracks look like arcs? Instead of just "is able to ski bumps", can the skier ski the fall line in moguls? Can the skier turn at will at the top, shoulder, back or trough? Can the skier turn twice on one bump? Does the skier keep forward cuff pressure? Can the skier keep his speed constant and not need to speed check in the bumps? Can the skier transfer from weighted skis to (near) equal pressure in powder? Can the skier keep from skidding in powder? Can the skier ski with skis submerged in powder?
Note that none of this is necessarily trail rating dependent.
I recall a quote: "While good skiers practice until they get it right, great skiers practice until they can't get it wrong". To me, that summarizes the "advanced" vs. "expert" debate. Others above have characterized it as a matter of confidence..
"Intermediate" vs. "advanced" though seems to be a whole technique difference; to me, "advanced" skiers aren't doing the same "intermediate" movements "better"; they're doing something entirely different. They're playing two different sports.
"Intermediate" vs. "advanced" though seems to be a whole technique difference; to me, "advanced" skiers aren't doing the same "intermediate" movements "better"; they're doing something entirely different. They're playing two different sports.
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I like the list of good skiing qualities, but pretty soon one will have to be Jon Olsson to be considered an advanced skier. It's advanced, not master of skiing.
So Bode would fail the above test, as his zipperline bumps are in question. Probably Mikaela isn't great in bumps. Etc, etc.
Can Olsson ski bumps?
So Bode would fail the above test, as his zipperline bumps are in question. Probably Mikaela isn't great in bumps. Etc, etc.
Can Olsson ski bumps?
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