How to improve skiing?

[razie]

To the OP - here's me at a working session, working on and exaggerating... you guessed it: counter (aka all things separation). Ignore the boot setup and you'll see all sorts of artifacts of trying to control and playing with angular momentum, as well as having a hard time putting up with the resulting ski performance even on that green run.... all good things for me to learn from.


One difference that's obvious is that my back is upright throughout, while you hunch forward while creating the counter - that could be a school of thought thing... along the lines of "angulation creates separation" vs separating "counterbalance and counteraction"

Just look at the first 4 turns and try to do just that!

Pole drag drills are fine when appropriate. Alex isn't there yet. It won't help his feet a bit.

I figured getting him to flex, together with the separation from the double pole drag, while trying to wiggle the feet would encourage some looseness and separation in the lower body, letting the feet work... "bend ze kneez" kind of thing. He is sort of flexing, but not putting that to good use... which is a little annoying so specific tipping and edging work is needed...

cheerz

 

[markojp]

I'd rather work with Alex with his boots unbuckled (and power strapped synched) to develop sensation of opening and closing ankles.

 

[karlo]

let the body help you discover what movement patterns are needed

The key word is "let",

IMO, OP is an advanced enough skier to figure it out IF degrees of freedom are restricted and objectives or outcomes are clearly defined. Think learning how to propel oneself on level ground with a skateboard, think learning how to swing on a swing, think, yes, learning how to hula hoop. There have been many suggestions that limit degrees of freedom in such a way to force the use of angulation, without angulation being the explicit objective. Is it that the outcome is ill defined; or perhaps the subject is not driven to achieve the outcome, to propel with a skateboard, to swing, to hula hoop, so to speak?

focus on the input side, he seems to be fixated on the outcomes, which will largely take care of themselves once the input side is straightened out.

IMO, one must have desired outcomes, outcomes that generate feedback on the success and failure of inputs. And, I don't think it's worth working on some of the suggested drills, much less L3 requirements, without first, though not mastering it, achieving meaningful angulation. How about this? Start with a high-in-the-turn hip dump.

 

[markojp]

I'm curious.... why start with a big movement (hip dumping) way up the chain? Having spent time undoing hip dumping (which the OP is prone to do) with L2 and L3 candidates, I guess I just don't understand why we'd actively encourage anyone to dump.... help me out.

 

[Uke]

Karlo,

Angulation/counter balancing are outcomes dependent on the input from the ski/snow interface. Intentional dumping of the hip is one of the worst ways to try to achieve angulation or any other positive aspect of high level skiing.

uke

 

[karlo]

I'm curious.... why start with a big movement (hip dumping) way up the chain? Having spent time undoing hip dumping (which the OP is prone to do) with L2 and L3 candidates, I guess I just don't understand why we'd actively encourage anyone to dump.... help me out.

Angulation/counter balancing are outcomes dependent on the input from the ski/snow interface. Intentional dumping of the hip is one of the worst ways to try to achieve angulation or any other positive aspect of high level skiing.

I was being half facetious, but also half serious. To answer would be a huge digression to this thread. So, I will attempt an answer in a new thread, or maybe the 'what is a hip dump' thread. I'll post a note here when I've posted on the subject. It has to do with Fun.

 

[markojp]

I do fun, even silly things to work on range of motion, and yes, most L2 and 3 candidates lack it, but I'd only do hip dumping to prove how out of balance and limiting it is. 'Fun'... tactics and terrain. Dumping... I just wouldn't go there with Alex at all.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

IMO, OP is an advanced enough skier to figure it out IF degrees of freedom are restricted and objectives or outcomes are clearly defined. Think learning how to propel oneself on level ground with a skateboard, think learning how to swing on a swing, think, yes, learning how to hula hoop. There have been many suggestions that limit degrees of freedom in such a way to force the use of angulation, without angulation being the explicit objective. Is it that the outcome is ill defined; or perhaps the subject is not driven to achieve the outcome, to propel with a skateboard, to swing, to hula hoop, so to speak?



IMO, one must have desired outcomes, outcomes that generate feedback on the success and failure of inputs. And, I don't think it's worth working on some of the suggested drills, much less L3 requirements, without first, though not mastering it, achieving meaningful angulation. How about this? Start with a high-in-the-turn hip dump.

Alex needs to change some more basic movement patterns. Practice makes permanent and Alex would be better served by focusing on instilling different movement patters that will get him the results he is seeking.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Alex needs to change some more basic movement patterns. Practice makes permanent and Alex would be better served by focusing on instilling different movement patters that will get him the results he is seeking.

Nancy, that's exactly the issue. What are the results he is seeking?

Granted, some new movements bring with them lots of other new movements, and others, well, not so much.
To figure out what to focus on requires Alexn to know what new thing he wants to master, and to know which new movements will bring him closest to his goal.

I'm not sure he knows that goal yet. A PSIA examiner from his region, skiing along with him, could clarify that vision. The community here can only do so much.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Nancy, that's exactly the issue. What are the results he is seeking?

Granted, some new movements bring with them lots of other new movements, and others, well, not so much.
To figure out what to focus on requires Alexn to know what new thing he wants to master, and to know which new movements will bring him closest to his goal.

I'm not sure he knows that goal yet. A PSIA examiner from his region, skiing along with him, could clarify that vision. The community here can only do so much.

He has identified that he wants to pass Level 3. I think people here have done a good job of idenitfying Alex' movement patterns. Alex can compare those to the descriptors for the exam skiing tasks and see if they match. I agree that an examiner from his region could clarify that vision. I think that some of the advice given here is not going to help Alex gets where he wants to go.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

To the OP - here's me at a working session, working on and exaggerating... you guessed it: counter (aka all things separation). Ignore the boot setup and you'll see all sorts of artifacts of trying to control and playing with angular momentum, as well as having a hard time putting up with the resulting ski performance even on that green run.... all good things for me to learn from.

razie: Great Skiing!!!

AlexZ and I ski similarly. Although in the bumps I also add up and downhill stems. So I am pretty likely a worse skier than Alex.

Here goes a suggestion to all you great skiers and instructors on how to teach others like me how to ski. (This is just my suggestion after 20 years of being confused by my peers and others up the food chain):

Never talk about CoM. Never talk about counter. Never talk about separation. Never talk about cross-over or cross-under. Or shortening the inside leg. Never talk about the upper body in a "developmental" manner whatsoever again.

Because bonehead's like me who can only chew gum when not walking, will listen to you and then we will only focus on what the upper body is doing. To the total exclusion of what my feet are doing. To please you. Which will unfortunately confuse you. I promise you that I will not only "separate" my upper body from the ski/snow interface, but my entire upper body movement will be ineffective at best and totally 180 degrees out of sync with what the skis are doing or should be doing at worst.

When we teach someone to drive a car we say "Turn the wheel with the hands."

We don't say "'Separate' your hand and arm movements from your upper body and turn the wheel while continuing to keep your upper body facing forward in the car."

Focus on what the skis are doing. Talk about the upper body only in a "corrective" manner and only when necessary and only related as to how inefficient upper body movements screw up the ski/snow interaction.

My personal skiing and my instruction has too long been plagued by focusing on what the upper body is doing. I am really good at teaching the upper body to move the skis so that the student has a safe, fun and somewhat learning experience. Moving the upper body to move or to orient the skis can indirectly create better ski/snow interaction. But the focus is all wrong. And it has limited my and my students' progress. It will limit your students' "feet feel" for better and more natural and efficient skiing. From my recent personal observation and study: FEET FOCUS IS THE FOUNDATION FOR ALL GOOD SKIERS!

And of course, focusing on the upper body is really a band aid for bad "balance." Yes, you can push the upper body inward to incline and brace against an edged outside ski. I do that remarkable well -- which is a total mistake. And continuing the wrongward focus you can teach the student to turn his or her inclination into an "angulation" -- but only if the arc and ski/snow interaction by happenstance will accommodate it! Yes, you can pop upward to flatten your skis in the bumps to release your edges -- like me -- which is a substitute for managing edge and pressure control from the feet. Correcting balance with your upper body is slow and limiting and on tougher terrain becomes simply ineffective. Your student will max out their learning and -- like me -- they won't even know why. Constantly adjusting balance from the ankle joint would seem to be the most efficient way to prevent the upper body from getting out of balance in the first place, no?

What a waste of seasons and attention: "Jumping into the swimming pool..." "Shooting the basketball..." My personal over-used: "See the letter 'C-type' curve I make from my downhill foot to my shoulders to put the weight and edge on the downhill/outside ski?..."

Witness the past threads: "How much counter should I have?" "What is counter?" "Cross-over -under"...

It is all the wrong focus.

AlexZ: IMHO, you and me need to back the truck up. And relearn everything from a completely different perspective -- I.E., learn to ski from the feet up.

To markojp and others: Where are your progressions for:

https://www.pugski.com/threads/ski-...t-time-beginner-or-intermediate-skiers.10486/

 

[Skisailor]

He has identified that he wants to pass Level 3. I think people here have done a good job of idenitfying Alex' movement patterns. Alex can compare those to the descriptors for the exam skiing tasks and see if they match. I agree that an examiner from his region could clarify that vision. I think that some of the advice given here is not going to help Alex gets where he wants to go.

I agree with your big picture take on Alexz' situation. I'm not from the OP's Division, but he seems to be trying to improve his dynamic medium radius turns. ??? If PNW is anything like NRM, there is no written description (or standard!) given for certification tasks like the one he is working on - i.e. short, medium or long radius dynamic turns. So it's often hard for a candidate to set goals or assess their progress. Working with a clinician or examiner, as you suggested, then becomes essential, but unfortunately, the coaching, and most particularly the standard for passing, may be inconsistent within the clinician/examiner team.

Anyway - I only bring this up because if the OP is a bit unsure of his goals, and of what he is supposed to be doing for these types of turns plus how to get there, it's probably understandable.

 

[LiquidFeet]

What skisailor said.

 

[karlo]

learn to ski from the feet up.

As for learning to ski from the feet up (then ankle), that and the entire post makes sense to me, but then... I think, and I'm thinking much of what I have been thinking since early on. What's the point if that is not followed through by angulation. I'm thinking macro motions vs fine motions. I'm thinking kids get the macro's first (hips), then the micro's. I'm thinking, get the angulation going, then work on ankles and feet.

As for hip dumping, I'll go into my reasoning in another thread. I'm now leaning towards the 'what's a hip dump' thread, because, from what @markojp describes, I'm no longer sure I know what a hip dump is. What I'm thinking it is, it sure doesn't put one out of balance.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

I agree with your big picture take on Alexz' situation. I'm not from the OP's Division, but he seems to be trying to improve his dynamic medium radius turns. ??? If PNW is anything like NRM, there is no written description (or standard!) given for certification tasks like the one he is working on - i.e. short, medium or long radius dynamic turns. So it's often hard for a candidate to set goals or assess their progress. Working with a clinician or examiner, as you suggested, then becomes essential, but unfortunately, the coaching, and most particularly the standard for passing, may be inconsistent within the clinician/examiner team.

Anyway - I only bring this up because if the OP is a bit unsure of his goals, and of what he is supposed to be doing for these types of turns plus how to get there, it's probably understandable.

Since he wants to pass PSIA Level 3 -start with the PSIA 5 fundamentals and go from there. The fundamentals apply to all sorts of turns.

Some of the feedback here has addressed, fore/aft balance, foot to foot pressure, rotation, edging and regulating the magnitude of pressure. At some point, we all have to decide which one to address.

 

[Skisailor]

Since he wants to pass PSIA Level 3 -start with the PSIA 5 fundamentals and go from there. The fundamentals apply to all sorts of turns.

Some of the feedback here has addressed, fore/aft balance, foot to foot pressure, rotation, edging and regulating the magnitude of pressure. At some point, we all have to decide which one to address.

The five fundamentals are always important as underlying concepts. And our comments HAVE been all over the map! But even if we all agreed to start with one - let's say, fore-aft balance - I guarantee you there would be as many opinions about what constitutes effective fore-aft balance and how to accomplish it as there are posters on this thread. And that's totally fine when we are talking about our personal skiing, and our styles and preferences. There's more than one way to ski. But it's a real problem when we are talking about unspecified certification standards which may ultimately influence an instructor's pay.

I'm just saying - I really feel for Alexz in his quest. It's hard enough to make significant movement pattern changes in skiing. But it's even harder when you're not really sure whether the changes you're being asked to make are the right ones to move you toward your goal.

Edited to add - Alexz, once the season starts you might want to try to find a colleague who JUST passed the L3 recently - like last year. And ask if they'll go out with you and give you some tips and the benefit of their recent exam experience.

 

[markojp]

Alex has access to excellent coaching (division staff and L3 examiners) including occasional sessions with a national d-team member in the concession school he's with at Stevens Pass, and at least 3 excellent resources for boot work in the region. IMHO, Alex needs to work with a primary mentor and start from the ground up. I'm not sure where all the local trainers will be landing this winter, but he's got at least one or two people at every local mountain who could help him.

 

[markojp]

As for learning to ski from the feet up (then ankle), that and the entire post makes sense to me, but then... I think, and I'm thinking much of what I have been thinking since early on. What's the point if that is not followed through by angulation. I'm thinking macro motions vs fine motions. I'm thinking kids get the macro's first (hips), then the micro's. I'm thinking, get the angulation going, then work on ankles and feet.

As for hip dumping, I'll go into my reasoning in another thread. I'm now leaning towards the 'what's a hip dump' thread, because, from what @markojp describes, I'm no longer sure I know what a hip dump is. What I'm thinking it is, it sure doesn't put one out of balance.

No Tim... DON'T teach kids macros first. Kids inherently will DO what you show. Show them skiing through the chain starting st the feet, and they'll follow. Want a bad analogy? You can run all over a soccer field, but if you can't use your feet to control the ball, all the running around is for naught. If my kid was in a class with the instructor teaching dumping, I'd pull him out in a heart beat. If the instructor where someone I was responsible for training, id set them down for a long, tough, heart to heart.

Kids love to p play and experiment on one ski, bouncing on two, etc... Tell them what you want their skis to do or where to go, and they'll make it happen. You as the instructor should know the fundamentals your trying to address, but they don't need to know and get into the technical jargon weeds until they're at the point in their cognitive development where they're thinking about their skiing in a way that it may become advantageous to both the coach and student. And even then, TOO much is too much, and that goes for all ages... Alex (with respect) is clearly in the 'too much' zone and much in this thread is only heaping more coal on the inferno. We're looking for the warm controlled glow of a wood fired pizza oven.

 

[markojp]

To clarify, yes, there's absolutely a time and place to deal with inclination, angulation, 'impulse, retraction, extension, etc... but when we're not addressing snow/ski interaction at the closest point of the human body to the surface we're navigating, something is amiss.

 

[razie]

Good points about re-directing focus back on the lower body, @Tim Hodgson and @markojp - get the feet working and not getting carried away too much discussing the separation and the upper body - the main point there was that he needed to change his pattern of starting the turn with the upper body and there is some change visible, at least in some turns.

I still think some basic foot wiggles, done right (flexion, pole drags etc) will help, I think @markojp also recommended rollerblades.

You can and should do this also one foot at a time, to study the movements - for you to be able to use the ankle, the foot needs to be unweighted, flexed at the knee and dorsiflexed, so: stand on the outside ski when flat, then lift the new inside ski's tail off the snow (unweight it and flex the knee), keep it back (dorsiflex the ankle with a strong muscle action), touch it to the outside boot (max range of movement) and then strongly invert the foot (tip it). There is a more advanced version of this, where you also overlap the tips of the skis (i.e. Javelin), but still focus on the foot action.

Loosening the cuffs is a good idea - OP is fairly static, dorsiflexion-wise. Also re-evaluate the boots and how tight the boot is around the foot/ankle (too loose and too tight are both just as bad).

Teaching hip dumping @karlo is a big no-no for me. Been there, done that, it does teach things, but then you have to spend too much to undo it - might as well not go there - it's in the "starting the turn with the upper body" category. Footwork is (almost) always the answer!