Higher level ski instruction options?

[geepers]

I don't think it's that simple. That formula is too black and white. What's valuable for one could be worthless to another at any cost. Also, there's more than just monetary cost. I think a better equation is value=perceived benefit/perceived or actual cost.

The intent was to point out some of the absurdity of an endless search for "value".

My experience with group lessons was rather different to yours. For whatever reason - luck with instructors or more easily satisfied or working it harder - I've had plenty of improvements from group lessons. Mostly in BC Canada but not always. And I've continued down the path by doing instructor courses. It's all been great value.

Previously posted my thoughts on how to get the most out of a group lesson but here's the highlights:
1. Do a little research on instructors - that may mean taking some lessons to find the right ones to work with.
2. Turn up prepared. Warmed up ready to ski and able to answer the question: what do you want out of this lesson?
3. Participate: Ask questions; take the opportunities to ski right behind the instructor without monopolising it); work it through the lesson.
4. Make notes either during or immediately after.
5. Practice what was taught and learnt. Probably the biggest thing is not to immediately over-terrain after the lesson. See it all the time - people who have begun to acquire new movement patterns in a morning lesson immediately head for the gnarly terrain and immediately go back to their old ways. And then wonder why the lesson didn't work and their instructor is talking about the same thing next time.

The bit about the unbuckled boots 1st run implies to me that you are probably a go for it sort of character. That's great but it needs patience to ingrain new movement patterns. Learn on the green and test on the mean. Which may mean spending a lot of time on the green and blue.

There's a similar situation in golf. The driver is longest club in the bag and therefore the most difficult to operate. We lose form very quickly with that club. Yet down the driving range there's people hitting ball after ball with a driver in a misguided attempt at mastery. (It's not even the way a round of golf is played.) Far better to use a short iron to build form then hit a ball with the driver and then back to the short iron.

 

[KingGrump]

The bit about the unbuckled boots 1st run implies to me that you are probably a go for it sort of character.

Don't think the unbuckled boots 1st run necessitate the go for it character. From the rest of the posts. I would tend to agree with you on the OP's character part.
The unbuckled boots 1st (and 2nd) run is a way to keep the aggression in check. Calms the heart, so to speak.

Try skiing the entire day with the unbuckled boots. Good way to learn limits.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Next time I call to book you, I'll be sure to mention the half-price discount you feel I should be getting.

I have told them that. You just be sure to tell them to give me a 100% raise too.

 

[geepers]

unbuckled boots. Good way to learn limits.

Deserves a thread of its own....

 

[KingGrump]

Deserves a thread of its own....

Start one up.

ETA: Sucks being old and slow.

 

[CoPow]

The first bit.... politely, I say BS. 'Good' skiers aren't at all in the back seat in tough terrain.

Second bit. You haven't taken a group lesson with an instructor who know their stuff, but in fairness, you did say that you hadn't taken a group lesson.

OK. What if I told you a number of world cup skiers said they got in the back seat time and again? Sayin Bull Shit to someone is a bold move. Well, I don't really speak English that well so I may be wrong but that's what I was taught anyway so I try not to do it. But I digress and anyway(s), I say it again. EVERYBODY gets in the back seat. Just at different levels. I'm all for objections, but I would appreciate if you could think carefully before labeling it BS especially with the fact I mentioned above.

Damn, I sound like a total ass, haha. My point is, I didn't say you can't get anything from group lessons. Rather, I'm trying to say You DO get something, however, expecting JUST taking a group lesson or two makes you a non-recreational skier is not realistic. It sounds like KingGrump did A LOT outside of the group lessons and that's exactly my point. Savvy? :p

 

[KingGrump]

OK. What if I told you a number of world cup skiers said they got on the back seat time and again? Sayin Bull Shit to someone is a bold move. Well, I don't really speak English that well so I may be wrong but that's what I was taught anyway so I try not to do it. But I digress and anyway(s), I say it again. EVERYBODY gets in the back seat. Just at different levels. I'm all for objections, but I would appreciate if you could think carefully before labeling it BS especially with the fact I mentioned above.

Damn, I sound like a total ass, haha. My point is, I didn't say you can't get anything from group lessons. Rather, I'm trying to say You DO get something, however, expecting JUST taking a group lesson or two makes you a non-recreational skier is not realistic. It sounds like KingGrump did A LOT outside of the group lessons and that's exactly my point. Savvy? :p

All my lessons had been group lessons. Yeah, did a lot outside of those group lessons. A lot of skiing. A lot of skiing with really good skiers. One of them is @markojp .

I have often advocate forum member to go out and make a few turns together. Hoist a few afterward. Things get put into the proper perspective. Eliminates a lot of BS and cross talk. Doesn't get rid of the trash talk but makes them more fun and in the proper context.

 

[CoPow]

All my lessons had been group lessons. Yeah, did a lot outside of those group lessons. A lot of skiing. A lot of skiing with really good skiers. One of them is @markojp .

I have often advocate forum member to go out and make a few turns together. Hoist a few afterward. Things get put into the proper perspective. Eliminates a lot of BS and cross talk. Doesn't get rid of the trash talk but makes them more fun and in the proper context.

I only took a lesson once when I was a kid, with leather boots! So yeah what do I know about lessons but I was trying to say you could get something out of group lessons or just having someone who can actually ski watch you ski. At the same time you do need to do a lot outside of lessons, once a week is definitely not enough to be good at anything so you have to be creative. Anyway, hoisting is my forte (the weakness?), whichever the case, I'm always up for it, haha

 

[KingGrump]

I only took a lesson once when I was a kid, with leather boots! So yeah what do I know about lessons but I was trying to say you could get something out of group lessons or just having someone who can actually ski watch you ski. At the same time you do need to do a lot outside of lessons, once a week is definitely not enough to be good at anything so you have to be creative. Anyway, hoisting is my forte (the weakness?), whichever the case, I'm always up for it, haha

Both quality and quantity of the lessons count. I had 30+ Taos ski weeks over the years. Still do a few here and there. Always room for improvement.

 

[David Chaus]

Even someone as consistent and practically flawless as Mikaela Shiffrin is sometimes in the back seat. One of her superpowers is quickly and smoothly getting herself back into balance, which to me is one difference between “good enough” skiers and “great” or “expert” skiers.

 

[David Chaus]

Lessons rock. Take lessons, group or private. If the class isn’t up the level of instruction you expected, try to understand what was different between that and the best class you’ve had. Listen, learn, practice. Then take some more lessons.

 

[CoPow]

Both quality and quantity of the lessons count. I had 30+ Taos ski weeks over the years. Still do a few here and there. Always room for improvement.

Yeah, always room for improvement for sure. I get unlimited free group lessons and I do want to take advantage of it but kind of feel bad to bother the instructors for free... I ski better than most of them anyway :p wait, that's not me, my beers talking, but seriously, if I started asking how many centimeters my hands were behind during the initiation phase, I could just come across as a total asshole. I'm trying to say there is a lot to learn from lessons, not the other way around. I can't imagine how I teach people even though I "feel" I have a lot to say about other people's skiing. I don't think I suck at it compared to general public, but I'm definitely not nearly as good as instructors and I really respect those skills.

 

[François Pugh]

@CoPow don't feel guilty, the instructors get paid the same whether your in the group or not.

 

[markojp]

OK. What if I told you a number of world cup skiers said they got in the back seat time and again? Sayin Bull Shit to someone is a bold move. Well, I don't really speak English that well so I may be wrong but that's what I was taught anyway so I try not to do it. But I digress and anyway(s), I say it again. EVERYBODY gets in the back seat. Just at different levels. I'm all for objections, but I would appreciate if you could think carefully before labeling it BS especially with the fact I mentioned above.



Damn, I sound like a total ass, haha. My point is, I didn't say you can't get anything from group lessons. Rather, I'm trying to say You DO get something, however, expecting JUST taking a group lesson or two makes you a non-recreational skier is not realistic. It sounds like KingGrump did A LOT outside of the group lessons and that's exactly my point. Savvy? :p

King grump has had a lot of coaching and skis 100+ days a year. He works at his skiing and is very rarely in the back seat. I've seen him ski difficult terrain. Group lessons.... the point was in a group lesson with a good instructor, there won't be any "move your inside hand three inches". The change asked for will be much closer to the ground, usually in the feet. That often resolves issues that a lesser instructor only sees further up the chain (skier's body).

Back seat. WC skiers sometimes do get in the back seat because they're at their physical/physiological limit. Those who spend the least time there are the best. Those who live there aren't near the podium consistently and often don't get a second run. There's a large difference from occassionally getting there and quickly recovering, and saying 'everybody's in the backseat in hard terrain'. Your post sounded like 'backseat' is the norm, not the exception. savy? ( I think you missed the 'politely, I say BS' in my first reply.)

 

[CoPow]

King grump has had a lot of coaching and skis 100+ days a year. He works at his skiing and is very rarely in the back seat. I've seen him ski difficult terrain. Group lessons.... the point was in a group lesson with a good instructor, there won't be any "move your inside hand three inches". The change asked for will be much closer to the ground, usually in the feet. That often resolves issues that a lesser instructor only sees further up the chain (skier's body).

Back seat. WC skiers sometimes do get in the back seat because they're at their physical/physiological limit. Those who spend the least time there are the best. Those who live there aren't near the podium consistently and often don't get a second run. There's a large difference from occassionally getting there and quickly recovering, and saying 'everybody's in the backseat in hard terrain'. Your post sounded like 'backseat' is the norm, not the exception. savy? ( I think you missed the 'politely, I say BS' in my first reply.)

Actually, not savvy. While you can politely disagree with someone, politely saying f you is still f you is one thing but that's not important.

"I don't believe you are skiing in the back seat all the time. But you probably have back seat moments that last like 0.1 second." How could this sound like " 'backseat' is the norm, not the exception"? Politely saying.

The thing is most inbound slopes in most conditions are not difficult for good skiers. Isn't that pretty much the definition of level 9 skiers itself? They can ski them down with a bunch of crap on their shoulders with no poles. A day after a spring shower, 8 in the morning, when a 40 degree slope becomes a field of frozen huge bumps and exposed rocks, it gets a bit more interesting. If that's not enough, add some time limit. Again, EVERYBODY has their back seat moments. Just at different levels.

And that's the point. OP already self analized it. Cruising groomers, a 0.1 second of back seat moment doesn't really matter. You have enough time and space to recover. On a steep rough slope though, you get in there for 0.1 second and you could be in trouble.

OP analized it it's a fore-aft balance issue (good), tried some drills (even better), but the thing is there is a lot of other things that get you in the back seat. And a couple of dozen different drills that need to be done appropriately to address it. I don't know how you do it but whatever pointer you give, be it pull a boot(s) back, flex your ankles, point your toes upwards, glide your outside ski, lighten the outside ski/boot and tip it sideway, etc. I don't think one or two group lessons are enough to make a level 8 a level 9. Am I wrong and you are confident you could make Prosper a level 9 with just a couple of group lessons?

 

[CoPow]

@CoPow don't feel guilty, the instructors get paid the same whether your in the group or not.

mmm. Maybe I should try it.

 

[Mike King]

@Prosper, here's the thing. When you get to an advanced level of skiing, you have a set of ingrained movement patterns that you use in your skiing. The reason they are there is because they worked for you. And depending on how long, and how often, you've practiced those movement patterns will dictate how ingrained they are.

Some of those movement patterns are likely dead-ends that are frustrating your efforts to become a more accomplished skier. And those movement patterns are likely embedded in your belief system about how to make a turn, what biomechanics are involved, what the physics are that govern ski performance, as well as your tactics. And all of that is specific to YOU -- it's not only YOUR ingrained movement patterns, but YOUR anatomy, YOUR beliefs, YOUR tactics, and YOUR experience.

At the high levels of skiing and learning, it takes a lot of time, study, practice, questioning, and feedback to make significant changes in your skiing. The process is most assuredly NOT easy. And while some might be able to do so on their own, success of self study and self instruction is NOT likely to be successful. Why? Because an external frame of reference is not only most useful, but often required.

How many times have you been asked to perform a task while skiing, thinking then that you performed it, only to find out you did not? And how might one who is attempting to take their skiing to the next level (which implies that the knowledge of what's deficient in the current movement patterns, what would be more ideal, and what the best method of addressing the gap with the least effort and most reward is) be able to accomplish that task?

Group lessons are not private lessons. They are specific to the issues in the group, not the individual. And while some instruction in a group session may provide feedback to the individual, the lesson almost certainly will not be tailored to any single individual -- it's just unlikely that everyone needs exactly the same thing at the same time. Or masters the task at the same rate.

This is why, at the higher levels, private lessons are much more efficient than group lessons. They are also much more expensive. My own development path used group lessons for more than 10 years. But in the end, what made the difference was private lessons with a coach whom I had developed a relationship. And my group lesson experience was in a "lesson club" group where I skied with the same instructor every week -- a better experience than random group lessons that I've found are good usually for social fun, but not for deep learning.

So, my advice for you is to find a coaching opportunity. I realize most people cannot afford private lessons, and (IMHO) it isn't just a single, or even a few, private lessons that will make the difference. If you aren't one fortunate enough to be able to think about a long-term private coaching experience, then look for an opportunity to find a coach in a group setting.

That's why I think finding a masters racing program would work for you. You will have coaching from a consistent source. And racing has a focus on technique, and a measurement protocol to assess progress: your time.

A race camp would also be a good option. A lot of instructors here in Aspen go to the Rossignol race camp at Mammoth the first week of May. Very high level coaching, and you'd have a lot of very experienced instructors in your group (many of whom are examiners in PSIA as well as coaches in the USSA) around you to help out. Plus Mikeala Schiffrin is there running gates next to the training for inspiration.

Just my $.02 from a fellow traveller who has been remaking his skiing for the past 15 years.

Mike

 

[eyvoom]

Become an instructor! You get a free pass for you and the family, discounts on just about everything, and some top-notch clinic access. The commitment can be pretty low, and it's a ton of fun. If you work for Vail Resorts, you can sign up for clinics at their other mountains as well. It's a great way to get some amazing instruction with some world-class examiners for free.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

[QUOTE="KingGrump, post: 415974, member:

Try skiing the entire day with the unbuckled boots. Good way to learn limits.
[/QUOTE]

Good way to get black toenails

 

[Dave Marshak]

@CoPow don't feel guilty, the instructors get paid the same whether your in the group or not.

mmm. Maybe I should try it.

Or maybe don't. Regardless that the instructor gets paid, you would be distracting him from his paying clients and making his job harder, and maybe pissing his clients off as well. IF you did it to me I'd find a way to get rid of you.

dm