Higher level ski instruction options?

[Prosper]

I typically take an all day group lesson every 1-2 years. I’m an Epic Local Pass holder, live in the Denver metro area and usually take my lesson at Keystone or Breck. Like many other front rangers I ski mostly on the weekends but also get about 1/3 of my days in on weekdays. The vast majority of my ski days are skiing with my 9yo and 10yo kiddos and this season I’ll be teaching my almost 5 yo to ski. In a season, I only get a handful of days to ski without kids. I enjoy improving and typically have a lot of fun in a lesson, especially when the group is well matched. However, the last few group lessons I’ve taken have been disappointing due to a a wide range of skill levels in the group. Over the past few years it seems like there are less instructors assigned to advanced groups which results in larger groups and more disparate skill levels in the same group. Four to five years ago when I would take a group lesson at most the group was 3 students all of similar ability and not uncommon for me to be the only student in the advanced group. I took a lesson toward the end of last season which had 6 students ranging from level 7 to 9 all of us in the same group. The instructor, a full cert, pulled me aside after about an hour and told me that I really should be working with a coach rather that taking a group lesson. I’ve never looked into hiring a coach but I suspect it’d be as much or more that private lessons and thus, cost prohibitive for me. I’ve thought about joining PSIA, getting my level 1 cert and taking a clinic once or twice a year to improve my skiing. I did the JH Steep and Deep camp about 12 years ago which was great. However, due to a knee issue, it’s really difficult for me to ski hard more than 2 days in a row. Are there other options for getting quality advanced group instruction one or two days at a time?

 

[Blue Streak]

A 15 day teaching commitment at either of those places opens up a world of clinic opportunities.

 

[Chris V.]

This comes up from time to time. Here are some recent threads in which you might find something of interest:

https://www.pugski.com/threads/ski-lesson-prices-examples-from-your-mountain.17202/

https://www.pugski.com/threads/mogul-clinics-your-thoughts.16379/

https://www.pugski.com/threads/what-keeps-you-from-taking-ski-lessons.13382/

https://www.pugski.com/threads/best-value-beginners-resorts.14168/

https://www.pugski.com/threads/affordable-ski-lessons-share-your-tips-and-experiences.13495/

https://www.pugski.com/threads/are-group-lessons-effective-for-advanced-skiers.13357/

 

[François Pugh]

Having researched this exact topic in the past, I tried very hard to get a private lesson with Skinerd from epicski when I was at Mt. Washington BC a couple of years ago, but his staff was adamant that he was too busy teaching one of the Section 8 camps that week, and I couldn't justify taking a week-long camp during my brief family visit (nor the expense).
You might want to look into Section 8 https://www.section8ski.com/ski-snowboard-camps/

 

[Rich McP]

I took a lesson toward the end of last season which had 6 students ranging from level 7 to 9 all of us in the same group.

Where did this happen to you, and what day of the week was it?

 

[Speculator]

When I worked at Stratton (2002 -2010), if a higher ability level skier wanted a group lesson and we had the instructor staff available, we would accommodate the skier even if it meant giving a one-on-one lesson since we always wanted our instructor staff to be working (and getting paid), as well as our clients being happy and returning for more lessons. I would suggest letting the ski school staff know of your needs when you get to the skier meeting place. They may ask you to demonstrate your proficiency, of course, in a quick ski-off but it's worth it to get the most bang out of your buck.

 

[Prosper]

Where did this happen to you, and what day of the week was it?

It was at Keystone, 2nd to last weekend of the season on a Saturday. We had one lesson left in our Family Freedom four pack that needed to be used. Apparently a number of other skiers were in the same situation as me needing to use up their lesson packs. I usually take lessons on a weekday for the best chance to avoid this from happening. I ran into my family for lunch and decided to ski with them the rest of the day. My instructor recommended that I talk to ski school supervisor about my experience and that he would let inform the sup of the situation. In the end they comp’ed me a group lesson to take this season. I’ll definitely take it on a weekday in Jan or Feb.

A few seasons ago the same thing happened at Breck but to a lesser extent. It was an early Feb weekday. I was placed in a group of 4, our instructor was a full cert but 1st season at Breck. We had a group of 4 varying from upper level 7 to 9. Since I’m pretty familiar with Breck the instructor asked me to essentially determine the best terrain and runs for us to ski especially the upper mountain terrain. The least advanced student in the group struggled significantly in the moguls on Peak 10 under the chair. I was comp’ed a lesson then as well. The 2nd lesson was much better with a smaller, more evenly matched group and seasoned instructor.

I haven’t taken a lesson at Vail or BC for a number of years but from the lessons I’ve taken at Keystone and Breck over the past few years, it feels like there are less instructors assigned to the upper levels and the groups are larger. @Rich McP I’d be interested in hearing your perspective.

 

[Prosper]

When I worked at Stratton (2002 -2010), if a higher ability level skier wanted a group lesson and we had the instructor staff available, we would accommodate the skier even if it meant giving a one-on-one lesson since we always wanted our instructor staff to be working (and getting paid), as well as our clients being happy and returning for more lessons. I would suggest letting the ski school staff know of your needs when you get to the skier meeting place. They may ask you to demonstrate your proficiency, of course, in a quick ski-off but it's worth it to get the most bang out of your buck.

This has happily happened to me a few times, just not in a few years. Typically at the end of each lesson I take I ask my instructor to be honest and give me their assessment of my level. At the ski school meeting place I typically describe my skiing level by what my previous instructors have told me, am very frank about what I’m working on and would like to get out of the lesson. More recently I’ve been sharing my ski lesson experiences with the ski school supervisor at the meeting place. It seems like it’s more a matter of inadequate personnel rather than anything else. It feels like I should give up on the group lessons and look to other options, thus the reason for starting this thread.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

A 15 day teaching commitment at either of those places opens up a world of clinic opportunities.

The training is amazing at Breck and Keystone. Lots of clinics for all kinds of skiing improvement. It's avaialble to ski & ride school staff regardless of your number of days you signed up to work, and you can go to training at Breck, Keystone, Vail, Beaver Creek. Trainers are examiners and/or PSIA clinic leaders.

 

[martyg]

A 15 day teaching commitment at either of those places opens up a world of clinic opportunities.

This. You also don't have to be actively instructing in PSIA-RM to take advantage of clinics. From a financial standpoint, there are a bargain. A few areas in the I70 corridor have outstanding in-house training programs, and all areas are hurting for instructors. If you applied, and explained your situation. I am sure that any and all supervisors would work with you.

ME, from two different domains, there is no way to improve your craft than by teaching it, and seeking out clinics to improve your abilities. In my other domain, where I am PSIA D-Team level, those clinics usually revolve around national team camps and coaches. IME the process happens two ways: 1. You are exposed to the best sources of the truth. 2. When teaching, you are always modelling perfect movement patterns. That just translates into drill time for you, bell-to-bell if you are successful.

Finally, for your knee, do book an appointment at The Steadman Clinic if you feel that you are not receiving the very best care.

 

[Jerez]

If you dont want to commit to an employee situation, you can look into volunteering for an adaptive ski program and joining PSIA that way. Then do the clinics of your choice. Keep in mind however that PSIA clinics and clinicians vary widely in approach and quality too and can also have wide ability levels.

As to coaching, you could join an adult race program. That will improve your skiing for sure. On and off piste.

Regarding your knee, you could do a couple of half day or two hour privates. IMO, a good instructor should be able to identify the most important thing you should work on and give you cues to self practice like homework. Then go back to the same person in a few weeks and get the next step. It is, at least for me, really hard to do the one time drink from a firehose approach and much easier to deal with one or two changes at a time. I think this gets more pronounced the higher the level of skier.

 

[Blue Streak]

One of the most important aspects of the journey is learning how to critique oneself. It’s a good idea to ski with others who take it as seriously as you do. Sometimes when I ski with a buddy, we take turns recording video. I got tired of using an iPhone, so I purchased a little Sony video camera. It fits in my pocket and weighs practically nothing. And it goes without saying just how helpful it is when teaching. You can tell someone what movements they are making, until you’re blue in the face, But there is no substitute for showing them on video - or seeing it yourself.

 

[Bad Bob]

A different direction to consider is take lessons private or group at a 2nd tier ski area. There are some amazing instructors at smaller areas too. They aren't always the D-Team guys, but may well be examiners or clinic instructors with all of the knowledge and skills; they just don't choose to teach at a mega resort. They are out there.
A guy I taught with in the way back is still hanging out and skiing on a 1,000' vertical hill, he is PSIA LIII, CSIA L4, Austrian, French and Italian trained, and done at least 2 Interski's. What more do you require from an instructor? Granted this guy is rare, but they are out there. The very best teachers don't always wear a big time ski school parka.

These folks are out there if you look for them, some just get tired of the mega resort hastles. Finding them can feel like unicorn hunting but they exist.

 

[Josh Matta]

You dont specifically say. what are you goals from these lessons for yourself? Is it just improvement or something else?

 

[T-Square]

@Prosper, don’t know what your knee issues are, however, I have knee issues too. I’ve been using CADS for years. I get plenty of questions from my students about them. CADS take part of the load off your knees allowing you to ski longer. They do not interfere with your form or your skiing. They don’t correct bad habits. They just relieve the stress on your knees. I recommend them for some individuals. You might want to check them out.

Here’s the website: http://www.cads.com/

Here’s a news report on the system;


You can try the system at Vail. Walter Dandy, the designer, sets you up with a test system and takes you out on the mountain to use them.

 

[SkiSchoolPros]

You dont specifically say. what are you goals from these lessons for yourself? Is it just improvement or something else?

^YES^

Are you the level 9 in the groups you are referring to? While putting 7s and 9s in the same group may not be optimum, I've done a number of clinics at Vail and with PSIA that has had this skill range. Great instructors can work this split and help everyone improve. (Of course, this is harder if part of the group just wants to free ski)...A true level 9 looking to improve should have some specific goals or areas that they want to work on which should be discussed with their instructor/coach/trainer.

 

[Blue Streak]

Greg, Kolby, and Jenn are as good as it gets.

 

[Prosper]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.

Finally, for your knee, do book an appointment at The Steadman Clinic if you feel that you are not receiving the very best care.

I was seen at the Steadman Clinic. While the initial injury was sports related (torn ACL and large bucket handle medial meniscus tear) I had a very unusual infection which likely occurred during the initially repair. After 3 surgeries over a span of 2 years and moving to CO I sought out the Steadman Clinic. Can remember the name of the doc I saw but he thought it was probably an infection and referred me to a joint infection specialist in Denver. The 4th surgery and subsequent 6 months of antibiotic medication took care of the infection. However, I’m left with pretty significant arthritis in my knee. I’m not enthusiastic about getting a knee replacement at my ripe old age of 49 so I’ll deal with it until I can’t anymore.

One of the most important aspects of the journey is learning how to critique oneself. It’s a good idea to ski with others who take it as seriously as you do. Sometimes when I ski with a buddy, we take turns recording video. I got tired of using an iPhone, so I purchased a little Sony video camera. It fits in my pocket and weighs practically nothing. And it goes without saying just how helpful it is when teaching. You can tell someone what movements they are making, until you’re blue in the face, But there is no substitute for showing them on video - or seeing it yourself.

Due to my current season in life, the vast majority of my ski days are with my kids, which I really love. Skiing is such a good way to spend time with family and it’s been a true joy to watch my kids get better and better. When I’m skiing with my kids I frequently try to improve my technique by doing drills or having them do drills with me for a short part of the day. Just about everyone tells me that my kids are going to out-ski me one of these days. Of my 5 kids, so far, none of them is even close and I plan to keep it that way as long as my ailing body will allow

You dont specifically say. what are you goals from these lessons for yourself? Is it just improvement or something else?

I’m mostly working on being more subtle with my skiing. In my younger years when I learned to ski I was very athletic and skied very aggressively. As I get older and due to my previously mentioned knee issue, I need to ski with more finesse, ride a flatter ski, be more patient, choose a rounder line, look for the bridges connecting the moguls, etc. I also find that skiing with better technique is easier on my knee. When I ski poorly, it hurts my knee more.

@Prosper, don’t know what your knee issues are, however, I have knee issues too. I’ve been using CADS for years. I get plenty of questions from my students about them. CADS take part of the load off your knees allowing you to ski longer. They do not interfere with your form or your skiing. They don’t correct bad habits. They just relieve the stress on your knees. I recommend them for some individuals. You might want to check them out.

Here’s the website: http://www.cads.com/

Here’s a news report on the system;


You can try the system at Vail. Walter Dandy, the designer, sets you up with a test system and takes you out on the mountain to use them.

About 5 years ago I did some product testing for a buddy of mine, Eric Wagnon, who does some freelance ski journalism for Liftopia and Skiing Examiner. I product tested a device that is very similar to CADS called the Ski Mojo. Coincidently, I tested it while skiing at Vail. The Ski Mojo website has the review: https://www.skimojo.com/ski-mojo-examiner-com/?v=7516fd43adaa.

^YES^

Are you the level 9 in the groups you are referring to? While putting 7s and 9s in the same group may not be optimum, I've done a number of clinics at Vail and with PSIA that has had this skill range. Great instructors can work this split and help everyone improve. (Of course, this is harder if part of the group just wants to free ski)...A true level 9 looking to improve should have some specific goals or areas that they want to work on which should be discussed with their instructor/coach/trainer.

The instructors I’ve worked with have told me that I’m a level 9 but realistically, I’m probably a mid level 8 most of the time and a 9 on a really good day. That situation was not the norm. It was just my most recent experience so left a bit of a sour taste. Not to toot my own horn, but I’m typically the strongest skier in the most advanced group. I’m the top beetle on the dung pile.

Greg, Kolby, and Jenn are as good as it gets.

At what resort do they instruct?

 

[karlo]

Extremely Canadian steep clinics. They carefully separate skiers of different abilities

https://extremelycanadian.com/#home-section-4

 

[Wilhelmson]

Of my 5 kids, so far, none of them is even close and I plan to keep it that way as long as my ailing body will allow

Just wait until they're 13.