eBike Electric MTB -- Wow! Philpug's Version

[Snowfan]

IMO...If we are both riding silent bicycles......It's none of my business if your bike has electric assist or not. And its none of your business if mine does or not.

Keep it simple and mind your own business.

 

[tball]

I never used anything above the eco mode, even on the climbs and thus the battery level didn't even drop one bar in the 10 or so miles I rode

Great to hear you got out on two wheels again today! Given how you rode today, I don't think you are the market for these Corvettes.

In Eco mode, you only had 50% support. In the fastest turbo mode, you'd get 300% support or 6 times the power!
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/products/performance-line-cx/

There is a reason these bikes have six times the power. They are going to be ridden fast like in the marketing. "Uphill Flow" says it all.

From what I see, there is no Miata e-bike for sale anywhere. No reason they can't make a lightweight, low-power e-MTB. The fact they don't says there is no market for them and speaks to how these bikes are intended to be used.

 

[tball]

I should make it clear again my only issue is with e-bikes on trails where motorized vehicles are not allowed.

I have zero problems with e-bikes elsewhere. I think they are an excellent solution for a long commute, for example.

Here's a great article about commuting on an e-bike "Riding an Electric Bike is NOT Cheating":
https://electricbikereport.com/electric-bike-cheating/

There is great data in there about how much faster e-bikes are than human-powered bikes:

23 mph vs. 15 mph over 42 miles is a huge speed difference. I'd expect similar on a 42-mile mountain bike ride that wasn't too technical.

If I had a 20-mile commute each way I'd seriously be looking at e-bikes. The more bikes on the road and using commuting infrastructure the better.

 

[tball]

Here they just sign up for the one of the many shuttle services and get driven up there.

There is no shuttle service to the top of any of my favorite climbs. e-MTB's are shuttles where they don't exist.

No shuttle to the top of Emerald in Steamboat. I just looked at my Garmin log and last time I rode there it took my slow ass 45 mins to get to the top and 15 down.

With an e-MTB on turbo, I bet I could get up that in half the time or faster. Then I'd have time and energy to do two or three laps. And, I don't need to worry about the weight of my bike going up, so big suspension for me to go faster downhill!

That's my problem with these bikes. The increased speed and traffic, especially downhill, is going to get bikes banned from trails. Bikes have already been banned from so many trails I used to ride. Hikers and equestrians already hate mountain bikes. We don't need e-MTB's getting us banned from more.

 

[LouD-Truckee]

Hopefully they will put a big dent in Strava. I have yet to see the inconsiderate e-biker as you describe (don't doubt it, just have not seen that), but the Strava-heads are the rudest, most dangerous riders out there. No such thing as polite passing when internet bragging rights are on the line!

wow.... just.... wow.....

 

[Jersey Skier]

23 mph vs. 15 mph over 42 miles is a huge speed difference. I'd expect similar on a 42-mile mountain bike ride that wasn't too technical.
.

I think this is your issue. You are expecting this huge speed difference that isn't available on any real mountain bike trail. You can't base it on what is possible on a paved road made for cars. On the road the only thing that will slow down the rider is the power output. On a trail it is the terrain that keeps the rider's speed in check.

 

[newfydog]

I bet I could get up that in half the time or faster. Then I'd have time and energy to do two or three laps. And, I don't need to worry about the weight of my bike going up, so big suspension for me to go faster downhill!

. The increased speed and traffic, especially downhill, is going to get bikes banned from trails. .

tball, your entire set of posts involves speculation, not real life experience. Stop beating the strawman, and go for a bike ride. The world hasn't ended. We get it that you just don't like them.

 

[Tom K.]

Can anyone explain why e-MTB's are designed to be so much faster than human-powered mountain bikes?

@tball where I will agree with you..at least I think I will... is if these bike can get more efficient, ie lighter, the less assist they will need. If they can get the technology/weight down to the mid 30lb range, I think the assist that will be needed will be significanlty less and more in the range you have eluded to it will be a win/win.

Power level is a good point, and I think we'll see at least some movement towards lower assist and lighter weight e-mtbs. This is already coming in the road bike arena with two new bikes worth checking out, the Orbea Gain and Focus Project Y. They both provide about 200 watts of power (still a lot) and weigh around 25 pounds and look like regular road racing bikes.

They are twice as fast uphill in this test:
https://dirtmountainbike.com/e-bikes/e-mtb-vs-mtb-climbing-test/

They are selling them based on a "new riding sensation" of "uphill flow":

Uphill flow is fun. One of my favorite things about dirt biking. Uphills are as much, or more, fun than downhills.

But this brings up a topic that I don't think has been addressed, and it's a big deal:

CLOSING SPEED on two-way trails.

As a guy sporting a mangled finger that will likely soon need removal due to an idiot going the wrong way on a one-way trail, I can tell you that in my local trail system, on weekends especially, closing speed is a bit deal, and e-bikes will significantly impact this.

 

[Tricia]

Oh, I sure have, and it usually involves genitals to the stem or a knee to a shifter clamp. Ouch!

If I were you, I wouldn't do that.

 

[Tricia]

Ebikers also cheat Strava times.

Hopefully they will put a big dent in Strava. I have yet to see the inconsiderate e-biker as you describe (don't doubt it, just have not seen that), but the Strava-heads are the rudest, most dangerous riders out there. No such thing as polite passing when internet bragging rights are on the line!

wow.... just.... wow.....

FWIW I don't think Strava users should be put in a negative category any more than e-bike riders should be called cheaters.

 

[LouD-Truckee]

FWIW I don't think Strava users should be put in a negative category any more than e-bike riders should be called cheaters.

too much hate..... I'm out.....

 

[Tricia]

too much hate..... I'm out.....

So, @LouD-Truckee have you tried an e-bike?

 

[skibob]

I think this is your issue. You are expecting this huge speed difference that isn't available on any real mountain bike trail. You can't base it on what is possible on a paved road made for cars. On the road the only thing that will slow down the rider is the power output. On a trail it is the terrain that keeps the rider's speed in check.

^This. I can't imagine averaging 20mph, even 15mph over 42 miles, even on a flowy non-technical MTB ride.

 

[newfydog]

FWIW I don't think Strava users should be put in a negative category any more than e-bike riders should be called cheaters.

I know of two Strava related deaths in California, on tragic, one simple Darwinism. The Darwin award goes to a guy who crashed and died trying to break a Strava record for a descent. The tragic one involved a StravaHead trying to break his PR who ran over and killed a pedestrian.

 

[Philpug]

I am sorry but blanketing Strava users as one lump is no different than blanketing the e-bikes as maniacs racing down the trails at mach speeds. Lets get back on topic.

 

[Snowfan]

I am sorry but blanketing Strava users as one lump is no different than blanketing the e-bikes as maniacs racing up the trails at mach speeds. Lets get back on topic.

fify

 

[tball]

^This. I can't imagine averaging 20mph, even 15mph over 42 miles, even on a flowy non-technical MTB ride.

The max speed might not quite reach 20mph, but the speed differential will be similar. Power matters, a lot. It seems many don't realize how much from the comments here.

Here's a great example from the Leadville 100 MTB course:

https://www.strava.com/segments/5118564

28 km/h is 17.4 mph. Not quite 20, but close.

Also, note the power. The top rider is putting out a sustained 270 watts over the course. Why do these e-MTB's put out 300 watts and MUCH higher peak watts? Note adding the power from the human puts them up to 500-600 watts!!!

There is no reason for e-MTB's to have substantially more power than the very best experienced mountain bikers, at least if they want to be considered mountain bikes. They are a different user type and should be treated as such.

If the big e-bike industry wants to build a Type 0 bike that has the same power profile of a typical mountain biker, I'll be more open to them being on trails where they are not currently legal.

 

[skibob]

The max speed might not quite reach 20mph, but the speed differential will be similar. Power matters, a lot. It seems many don't realize how much from the comments here.

Here's a great example from the Leadville 100 MTB course:

View attachment 47975
https://www.strava.com/segments/5118564

28 km/h is 17.4 mph. Not quite 20, but close.

Also, note the power. The top rider is putting out a sustained 270 watts over the course. Why do these e-MTB's put out 300 watts and MUCH higher peak watts? Note adding the power from the human puts them up to 500-600 watts!!!

There is no reason for e-MTB's to have substantially more power than the very best experienced mountain bikers, at least if they want to be considered mountain bikes. They are a different user type and should be treated as such.

If the big e-bike industry wants to build a Type 0 bike that has the same power profile of a typical mountain biker, I'll be more open to them being on trails where they are not currently legal.

You are confusing peak power with average power.

But you have convinced me that it would be unfair to allow an eMTB to compete in races like this. Not that I needed much convincing.

 

[Mike Thomas]

I agree that Strava users and eMTBs should be lumped together. Then dumped into an ocean. (I'm kidding, honest)

 

[ScotsSkier]

I agree that Strava users and eMTBs should be lumped together. Then dumped into an ocean. (I'm kidding, honest)

No, that's a bit drastic. I think that tball has a valid point though. Since eMTBs are going to be faster than the wide range of riders on conventional mtbs then, to avoid incidents, the solution is obvious........time to ban non eMTBs from the trails ....