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skibob

Skiing the powder
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4,268
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Santa Rosa Fire Belt
I'm not really ignorant, nor erroneous, I'm just not trying to fool anyone that riding ebike is same as riding bike ;) Since I have way too much time on my hands today, I checked if my physics from uni still works, and did some calculations to actually show you, how much you really "cycle" with emopeds ;)
I took for example one of my climbs in my backyard and here are data:
Uphill is 3.63km long and has 425m of ascent. Without going full speed I my time up is about 25min, which considering my weight and bike weight (plus few other factors that matter) brings that to average power of 252W, average speed of 8.7km/h and average climbing rate of 1020m/h.
Now, if I believe Bosch technical data for their ebike motors, and I don't see reason why not to believe them, there are 4 steps of assist. Eco with 60% assist, Tour with 140%, sport with 240% and Turbo with 340%. Now comes interesting part. Since you are suppose to have same workout on ebike as you have on normal bike, this means, I calculated my own 252W plus motor assist and here are data:

own power: 252W
Speed: 8.7km
time: 25:00min
vam: 1020m/h

eco: 60% = 403W (151W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 13.7km
time: 15:55min
vam: 1600m/h

tour: 140% = 604W total (352W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 19.8km
time: 11:00min
vam: 2320m/h

sport: 240% = 856W total (604 motor 252W own power)
Speed: 25.13km
time: 8:40min
vam: 2942

turbo: 340% = 1108W total (856W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 31.1km
time: 7:00min
vam: 3645m/h

So much about being ignorant ;) If you are riding all the time just on eco, you are 40% faster on that climb, and with 14km/h you would slowly start to have issues riding that trail. If you accidentally turn to Tour mode, you are almost 60% faster and I'm pretty sure there's no way you would ride that trail at 20km/h. Sport and Turbo modes are simply ridiculous, so it's useless to even comment on that.
I guess you can do conclusion out of these data yourself if you are really getting just as much exercise on emtb as you would on normal bike, or you are really just going up with motor and stretching legs adding motor power to the wheels ;)
Just because you can math doesn't mean you can design a study. You aren't even accounting for whether it is a cadence matching ebike or torque matching. ANd that is only the biggest thing you've overlooked.
 

WadeHoliday

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Why would you need more time on a e bike to get the same exercise as on a regular mountain bike?

It's amazing the misconception people have about e mountain bikes.

And it's always the ones that haven't tried it.


Oh, I've ridden a few of them, and spent many hours riding w/ people who were once fit and now are not, so use the ebike to be able to ride w/ still fit friends...

This whole exercise thing is great, I'm glad you are all getting out and exercising, we'll all live and ski longer!
I really do think you are confusing yourselves to try to justify that you are getting the same exercise you would be getting without a motor, but no formal argument from me.
If I go for a trail run for 45min, and I go for a mtb ride, I get way more exercise on the trail run in that time. If I go climb straight up for 45min, I get way more exercise then if I ride down the bike path.. hum.
Let's all exercise and if you enjoy the eboost, that's great. Would be great if those who ride twice as much trail w/ motors, double the trail work time and ride on trails where it's legal.

As far a real bikes going away, I also think that is delusional. I've been riding mtb's for more than 30 years, seen lots of trends come and go...

cheers!
Wade
 
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AmyPJ

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From my old PE major days: The main components of increasing fitness are frequency, INTENSITY, and time (meaning, how much time you spend exercising per session.) The ebike will decrease the intensity if you are riding the same frequency and same amount of time on the same trail. It will also decrease the intensity on almost ANY trail compared to riding a bike. So, you are removing one of the main components of increasing physical fitness. Yes, you are still doing more than the cheeto and bonbon eating couch surfer, however if you ride 30 miles with assistance, but the frequency and time are the same as if you rode 10 miles without assistance, then the net gain is not there, and I would argue is LESS because the intensity is not there.

I'm glad it helps get some people out there, I'm glad it's fun for them, but I still think that people are missing something by not striving to smash through a rock garden by pure muscle power, but instead by using a motor to "assist". Or, "that climb used to kick my ass, but on my e-bike, it's so easy and FUN!" My simple mind thinks if the climb kicks your ass, then go ride it more often until it doesn't. :huh: I do have a friend who races MTB (long-distance.) He rides an e-bike on long rides on the trails for his recovery days...which tells a lot about the intensity compared to a bike.
 
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Philpug

Philpug

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I'm glad it helps get some people out there, I'm glad it's fun for them, but I still think that people are missing something by not striving to smash through a rock garden by pure muscle power, but instead by using a motor to "assist". Or, "that climb used to kick my ass, but on my e-bike, it's so easy and FUN!" My simple mind thinks if the climb kicks your ass, then go ride it more often until it doesn't. :huh: .
I am not missing anything. To me missing means I liked or enjoyed it in the first place. ;) I am not going to hit my thumb with hammer because it hurts...then keep doing it until it stops hurting. :roflmao:

@Tricia and I went out for a nice ride today, the Tahoe XC center. This is the first time I have ridden it since last year and the back section leading up to and including the paved Fiberboard highway did a number on me..last year. Since I have been logging many more saddle days this year along with the loss of 20 plus pounds, this section didn't wind me at all. I haven't looked at my Strava to see the difference in times compared to last year (if I even recorded last year) but I am sure I crushed them...with much less effort and wasn't winded hardly at all. Would I have liked to been on an Ebike today? Maybe...instead of riding 9.2 miles in 1:20, we would either have done it in 1:10 or ridden longer in hte same time, I think it is a nice option to have.
 

WadeHoliday

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I am not missing anything. To me missing means I liked or enjoyed it in the first place. ;) I am not going to hit my thumb with hammer because it hurts...then keep doing it until it stops hurting. :roflmao:

@Tricia and I went out for a nice ride today, the Tahoe XC center. This is the first time I have ridden it since last year and the back section leading up to and including the paved Fiberboard highway did a number on me..last year. Since I have been logging many more saddle days this year along with the loss of 20 plus pounds, this section didn't wind me at all. I haven't looked at my Strava to see the difference in times compared to last year (if I even recorded last year) but I am sure I crushed them...with much less effort and wasn't winded hardly at all. Would I have liked to been on an Ebike today? Maybe...instead of riding 9.2 miles in 1:20, we would either have done it in 1:10 or ridden longer in hte same time, I think it is a nice option to have.

Hi Phil,
This thought tells me a few things..
first, it sounds like you didn't really love mt biking before the ebike.
Most people that fall in love with biking, running, and going into the "pain cave' in general learn to love those endorphins!

Second,
I also believe strava is evil, talking about strava and ebikes in the same sentence..! Yikes! As you know, I respect you, your thoughts, your balanced presentation and your passion for skiing (and now ebiking), but both of these things (ebikes and strava) have the capacity to ruin the wonderful trails in the mtns that have kept so many of us sane for so many years.

Anyway, I've been off the bike for 6 days with an overuse injury in my thumb joint, so time to wander the forum. Back to work, riding and tennis tomorrow, I still think we should ride together this fall, after the summer craziness. great work on the training and food choices, wow, 20lbs, awesome!

Cheers!
W
 

Rod9301

Making fresh tracks
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From my old PE major days: The main components of increasing fitness are frequency, INTENSITY, and time (meaning, how much time you spend exercising per session.) The ebike will decrease the intensity if you are riding the same frequency and same amount of time on the same trail. It will also decrease the intensity on almost ANY trail compared to riding a bike. So, you are removing one of the main components of increasing physical fitness. Yes, you are still doing more than the cheeto and bonbon eating couch surfer, however if you ride 30 miles with assistance, but the frequency and time are the same as if you rode 10 miles without assistance, then the net gain is not there, and I would argue is LESS because the intensity is not there.

I'm glad it helps get some people out there, I'm glad it's fun for them, but I still think that people are missing something by not striving to smash through a rock garden by pure muscle power, but instead by using a motor to "assist". Or, "that climb used to kick my ass, but on my e-bike, it's so easy and FUN!" My simple mind thinks if the climb kicks your ass, then go ride it more often until it doesn't. :huh: I do have a friend who races MTB (long-distance.) He rides an e-bike on long rides on the trails for his recovery days...which tells a lot about the intensity compared to a bike.
Funny how all these comments are from people that don't have a e mountain bike.
 
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Philpug

Philpug

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Hi Phil,
This thought tells me a few things..
first, it sounds like you didn't really love mt biking before the ebike.
Most people that fall in love with biking, running, and going into the "pain cave' in general learn to love those endorphins!

Second,
I also believe strava is evil, talking about strava and ebikes in the same sentence..! Yikes! As you know, I respect you, your thoughts, your balanced presentation and your passion for skiing (and now ebiking), but both of these things (ebikes and strava) have the capacity to ruin the wonderful trails in the mtns that have kept so many of us sane for so many years.

Anyway, I've been off the bike for 6 days with an overuse injury in my thumb joint, so time to wander the forum. Back to work, riding and tennis tomorrow, I still think we should ride together this fall, after the summer craziness. great work on the training and food choices, wow, 20lbs, awesome!

Cheers!
W
First, I was a huge mountain biker when I was back east. I worked t a cool bike shop, we had a Tuesday Night ride where we'd go out with our NightRider lights, build a fire, cook dogs, have a few beers and head home. We did this year round. I came out here with a Specialized Epic Comp 29 bt it wasn't the bike for Tahoe, not enough travel. I got a Giant Trance but never warmed up to it. Tricia had her accident and we got away from riding. Now that we are enjoying it, we are having a great time.

Second,
I use Strava to keep track of MY ride, no one else and maybe how it might compare to previous rides. I don't look at Kotm, that is not. me. I am not sure how you think that Ebikes let alone Strava are going to ruin the trails.

As far as riding, that would be fun...if you don't mind waiting for me and you want a short ride, I will ride my Trigger, if you want to ride at your pace, I will try to grab an Ebike.
 

WadeHoliday

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First, I was a huge mountain biker when I was back east. I worked t a cool bike shop, we had a Tuesday Night ride where we'd go out with our NightRider lights, build a fire, cook dogs, have a few beers and head home. We did this year round. I came out here with a Specialized Epic Comp 29 bt it wasn't the bike for Tahoe, not enough travel. I got a Giant Trance but never warmed up to it. Tricia had her accident and we got away from riding. Now that we are enjoying it, we are having a great time.

Second,
I use Strava to keep track of MY ride, no one else and maybe how it might compare to previous rides. I don't look at Kotm, that is not. me. I am not sure how you think that Ebikes let alone Strava are going to ruin the trails.

As far as riding, that would be fun...if you don't mind waiting for me and you want a short ride, I will ride my Trigger, if you want to ride at your pace, I will try to grab an Ebike.

Great!
I just saw that as you used the metaphor of riding a mtn bike to "hitting your thumb with a hammer... not missing it at all", didn't sound like something you liked.

I didn't say strava and ebikes "alone" are going to ruin the trails, I think they are the two biggest risks to increasing trail degradation. Why? While that's a discussion over beer or scotch or a thesis, but it primarily comes down to how they are used more than the items themselves. Trail straightening, cuts, sanitation, berms that never existed appearing, trail bed widening, dangerous collisions, much of this is happening due to the strava mindset. I've spent hundreds of hours in the woods covering up and reintegrating trail cuts, minimizing "spiderwebbing" and trying to "keep singletrack single", and much of this degradation was strava induced. My worry is the less "human powered" speeds possible of ebikes, especially going up, will continue to add to this, but also just the sheer volume of milage possible will dramatically increase degradation.
When I see an old guy in the woods tootling along on an ebike, or a group using strava to find their way, those are not the groups that concern me...

I look forward to riding this fall, I'm good with either. If we ride reno, bring the ebike, and you can wait for me. If we ride national forest, bring the regular bike and I'll enjoy a slower ride, I love riding, and don't need to push the speed all the time. Much of summer I set my heart rate monitor to beep when I go beyond my lactic threshold, as 80plus percent of my riding is there. I ride best at the high end when I have tons of time playing at the low end.

Rod: re post 347,
obviously comments like that come from people that don't own an ebike. Not funny, just obvious.
If someone doesn't believe they need assist, doesn't want the extra complexity and they enjoy the feeling of breathing hard and earning those miles, why would they spend 6k on a new toy.

Anyway, I'll keep working on keeping singletrack singletrack, pedaling and smiling...!

Cheers!
W
 
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Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
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So our trail organization's ED was at a meeting about E-bikes this week. At the meeting was an adaptive organization (I didn't really pay attention to which one). They were there to speak AGAINST e-bikes. They of course support using them for people with actual disabilities, but according to them, and I'm not putting words in their mouth, e-bikes are about "white privilege". According to them, most e-bikes are ridden by "old white men" who used to ride mountain bikes and are now too old, and that by doing so, they are equating old age with disabilities. Not the stance I expected from them.
 

Tom K.

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So our trail organization's ED was at a meeting about E-bikes this week. At the meeting was an adaptive organization (I didn't really pay attention to which one). They were there to speak AGAINST e-bikes. They of course support using them for people with actual disabilities, but according to them, and I'm not putting words in their mouth, e-bikes are about "white privilege". According to them, most e-bikes are ridden by "old white men" who used to ride mountain bikes and are now too old, and that by doing so, they are equating old age with disabilities. Not the stance I expected from them.

Sorry, but by using the term "old white men" this group has given up any right to speak about "white privilege".

Can't have your cake, and eat it, too.
 

Primoz

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And this is Euro thing, which means ebikes are 250W max and limited to 25km/h (15mph), which is still good enough for overweight unfit guy to easily beat pro rider. Now add 3 times more power as you have in US, and say it's not motorbike.
Thought this was an interesting video to throw into this conversation...
 

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