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Mike Thomas

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On another note, saying "skiing has lifts, why is this different?" is an idiotic argument. DH mt biking has lifts, that is the equivillent. XC biking, where trails tend to be multi-use, is a whole different enchilada. Take a look at user conflict in the Wasatch back country and then let's talk.

I am NOT anti ebike. I am not anti eMTB. I AM anti trail closure due to user conflict. I think most of the "why do you care how I enjoy the trails...?" folks do not understand the fragile nature of trail access. We WILL lose trail access faster than we will see a change in hikers/ dog walkers/ equestrian understanding of the differences between ebikes and pedal bikes (yeah, no sh*t you 'need to pedal for the motor to work'... it is still a motor). Wake me up when there are eMTB user groups fighting for new trails to be built, funding the build and then volunteering for the maintenance of them.
 

Erik Timmerman

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The max speed might not quite reach 20mph, but the speed differential will be similar. Power matters, a lot. It seems many don't realize how much from the comments here.

Here's a great example from the Leadville 100 MTB course:

View attachment 47975
https://www.strava.com/segments/5118564

28 km/h is 17.4 mph. Not quite 20, but close.

Also, note the power. The top rider is putting out a sustained 270 watts over the course. Why do these e-MTB's put out 300 watts and MUCH higher peak watts? Note adding the power from the human puts them up to 500-600 watts!!!

There is no reason for e-MTB's to have substantially more power than the very best experienced mountain bikers, at least if they want to be considered mountain bikes. They are a different user type and should be treated as such.

If the big e-bike industry wants to build a Type 0 bike that has the same power profile of a typical mountain biker, I'll be more open to them being on trails where they are not currently legal.

What's with the little lightning bolts? Is Strava assuming that Christoph Sauser is an bike rider? Christoph is just fast.
 
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Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
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The max speed might not quite reach 20mph, but the speed differential will be similar. Power matters, a lot. It seems many don't realize how much from the comments here.

Here's a great example from the Leadville 100 MTB course:

View attachment 47975
https://www.strava.com/segments/5118564

28 km/h is 17.4 mph. Not quite 20, but close.

Also, note the power. The top rider is putting out a sustained 270 watts over the course. Why do these e-MTB's put out 300 watts and MUCH higher peak watts? Note adding the power from the human puts them up to 500-600 watts!!!

There is no reason for e-MTB's to have substantially more power than the very best experienced mountain bikers, at least if they want to be considered mountain bikes. They are a different user type and should be treated as such.

If the big e-bike industry wants to build a Type 0 bike that has the same power profile of a typical mountain biker, I'll be more open to them being on trails where they are not currently legal.

As I said earlier. "Real Mountain bike trails", http://reviews.mtbr.com/fastest-bikes-at-the-2016-leadville-trail-100-mtb-race Todd Wells raced with aero bars, road shoes and Look pedals. Not exactly a technical course.
 

Tricia

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On another note, saying "skiing has lifts, why is this different?" is an idiotic argument. DH mt biking has lifts, that is the equivillent. XC biking, where trails tend to be multi-use, is a whole different enchilada. Take a look at user conflict in the Wasatch back country and then let's talk.

I am NOT anti ebike. I am not anti eMTB. I AM anti trail closure due to user conflict. I think most of the "why do you care how I enjoy the trails...?" folks do not understand the fragile nature of trail access. We WILL lose trail access faster than we will see a change in hikers/ dog walkers/ equestrian understanding of the differences between ebikes and pedal bikes (yeah, no sh*t you 'need to pedal for the motor to work'... it is still a motor). Wake me up when there are eMTB user groups fighting for new trails to be built, funding the build and then volunteering for the maintenance of them.
There are trails out here that have alternating days for mountain bike, hike, horse. It seems to work pretty well once you know the schedule.
 

Tricia

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I know of two Strava related deaths in California, on tragic, one simple Darwinism. The Darwin award goes to a guy who crashed and died trying to break a Strava record for a descent. The tragic one involved a StravaHead trying to break his PR who ran over and killed a pedestrian.
I've heard of those incidents as well, but I don't think its necessarily the norm.
 

Ken_R

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I like the odd and even day management they have for some trail segments at Apex park here in Golden, CO. You know what to expect so you choose when to go. One way MTB trails are the best for conflict avoidance even when they are multi use. Like it has been mentioned before, dont be an a-hole on the trail, be courteous no matter what bike you are on or if you are on foot or on a horse. Doesnt matter, be nice, dont be an ass. That should solve 99% of problems.
 

skibob

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Wake me up when there are eMTB user groups fighting for new trails to be built, funding the build and then volunteering for the maintenance of them.
Why so divisive? All of them are MTbers. Despite doomsday images of John Candy and Roseann Barr on eMTBs, I'll bet that virtually all eMTB riders are and/or have been also . . . MTB riders.

This is even more foolish and self-defeating than skier vs snowboarder.
 

Tricia

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Wake me up when there are eMTB user groups fighting for new trails to be built, funding the build and then volunteering for the maintenance of them.
Why so divisive? All of them are MTbers. Despite doomsday images of John Candy and Roseann Barr on eMTBs, I'll bet that virtually all eMTB riders are and/or have been also . . . MTB riders.

This is even more foolish and self-defeating than skier vs snowboarder.
I'll answer from my experience.
I was heavily involved with MTB trail clean up, opening up new trail, fixing old trail erosion when I lived in Michigan. I have not been an enthusiastic rider since moving to Tahoe for reasons explained in other threads. If I get as excited about riding as I think I am based on my experiences over the past week, I can absolutely see myself getting involved in a similar manner out here(but without the equipment that was available to me in my past life). This will happen based on my passion for the sport, not the type of equipment I'm riding.
 

Jwrags

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Other than the experience @AmyPJ reported of a rude biker on an eMTB, have there been a lot of user conflicts that can be related to the eMTB or is it just a theoretical concern, keeping in mind that jerks are jerks no matter the equipment they ride? I am curious if others have seen, heard of, or personally experienced adverse user conflict directly related to the eMTB? Full disclosure, I do not own one nor do I mountain bike very much.
 

tball

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tball

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What's with the little lightning bolts? Is Strava assuming that Christoph Sauser is an bike rider? Christoph is just fast.
I actually looked into this a while back out of curiosity. The lightning bolts in Strava mean the power is measured by a power meter, so likely fairly accurate. The power numbers without lightning bolts are a calculated estimate by Strava. The results without power don't have enough info for Strava to calculate power, say the rider didn't enter their weight.

Disclaimer: I don't use Strava, but have no problem with responsible usage. I track my activities in Garmin Connect.

I only compete against myself, and I'm losing a lot lately. :(
 

SBrown

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On another note, saying "skiing has lifts, why is this different?" is an idiotic argument. DH mt biking has lifts, that is the equivillent. XC biking, where trails tend to be multi-use, is a whole different enchilada. Take a look at user conflict in the Wasatch back country and then let's talk....

It's not an idiotic argument, it's a different argument -- addressing whether someone in less-than-optimal shape "deserves" to be out on the trails. Trail access is a related but separate concern, yes, and I don't have a large knowledge base. I still believe that it's just something that will have to be sorted out like any new technology. There is no putting the toothpaste back in the tube.

I don't see snowmobiles = e-bikes, though. Snowmobiles = dirtbikes. I don't think there is an equivalent in assisted uphill snow travel to e-bikes, yet? Maybe that's what I'll work on ... (Oops, I'm too late: https://www.skimag.com/adventure/jetpack-skiing)

edited to add: What I'm saying is that we can't just say NO to having e-bikes on MTB trails. It's going to happen. Figure out how to do it best, don't just dwell on the negatives, because it's wasted time and energy. Accept that it's here, and spend the time and energy on a solution.
 
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skibob

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I actually looked into this a while back out of curiosity. The lightning bolts in Strava mean the power is measured by a power meter, so likely fairly accurate. The power numbers without lightning bolts are a calculated estimate by Strava. The results without power don't have enough info for Strava to calculate power, say the rider didn't enter their weight.

Disclaimer: I don't use Strava, but have no problem with responsible usage. I track my activities in Garmin Connect.

I only compete against myself, and I'm losing a lot lately. :(
Well, if you got an e-bike you could win baby! :roflmao:
 

Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
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Nice. So you've done the Leadville 100 giving you the right to say it's not a real mountain bike trail?

Mountain bike trails come in all shapes and sizes. I haven't heard any suggestions e-MTB's will only be used on slower trails.

No I haven't, but numerous friends have. None said it was technical enough to slow them down, though the elevation nearly killed them.

But based on the speeds you posted, I don't see what the difference is. If they averaged 17.4mph unassisted and the assist cuts out at 20mph, what's the big deal? If you've ride an E-bike with a 20mph cutoff and try to exceed 20, it is like hitting a wall as you are suddenly trying to propel a 52lb. bike without any assist.
 

tball

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No I haven't, but numerous friends have. None said it was technical enough to slow them down, though the elevation nearly killed them.

But based on the speeds you posted, I don't see what the difference is. If they averaged 17.4mph unassisted and the assist cuts out at 20mph, what's the big deal? If you've ride an E-bike with a 20mph cutoff and try to exceed 20, it is like hitting a wall as you are suddenly trying to propel a 52lb. bike without any assist.
The point of the Leadville 100 trail is the elevation and climbs. Having a motor negates that challenge that is integral to mountain biking. It's not mountain biking with a motor. That's the point of the NO MTR in MTB sticker @epic posted.

Here's the deal with the speed and why the 20mph cut out is irrelevant. You are already going faster than 20mph on the descents and you don't need the motor anyway.

On the climbs, the motor will at least double your speed from 3-5 to 10 mph or more, depending on your fitness. On the flats, the motor has the power to increase your speed from say 10-15 to 20 mph.

Overall you spend a lot more time on the climbs mountain biking, in general, and on the Leadville 100 course in particular. That's where the motor helps you the most.

Overall, I think the net result on that course and similar would result in gains like those in the commuting article I posted. Even if you don't like the course, it's still mountain biking and ridiculous to claim otherwise.
 
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Philpug

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Is someone saying that an e-bike should be in the same race as an analog bike? If so, that really doesn't make sense. If the question is, should the e-bikes be on the same course at the same time as the analog bike? Well, since @tball referenced auto racing before, it is not uncommon for different car classes to be out at the same time in a race such as Le Mans. Just spit balling but, if we look at other races like Ironmans or Marathons, the serious contenders will start first. In todays ability for timing, send the e-bike group out 30 minutes earlier. Personally, I don't understand the idea of racing e-bikes..that to me is like a swiming race and using flippers.
 

4ster

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Took me a while to read this whole thread to a point where I would post. A few years ago I think I would’ve been anti-E mountain bike but as I get older I definitely think it could be a great option at some point down the road. The Tahoe area mountain bike association aka TAMBA, who has worked in conjunction with the USFS to build a lot of the local trails seems to have already made their decision...
DF30E097-F4E2-457F-88D1-3E616CEA919B.jpeg


85743F4A-1F38-49DC-A516-C460251F2710.jpeg


Meanwhile we have more pressing issues & REAL safety concerns with the arrival of battery powered Lime Scooters in South Lake Tahoe :eek:
0DCE4699-D5C1-4BD9-950C-2C8080B9C69B.jpeg


If the irresponsibility that these scooters have displayed in the last two weeks has any correlation to E-bikes, we are in big trouble! :facepalm:
 

Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
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Took me a while to read this whole thread to a point where I would post. A few years ago I think I would’ve been anti-E mountain bike but as I get older I definitely think it could be a great option at some point down the road. The Tahoe area mountain bike association aka TAMBA, who has worked in conjunction with the USFS to build a lot of the local trails seems to have already made their decision...
View attachment 48031

View attachment 48033

Meanwhile we have more pressing issues & REAL safety concerns with the arrival of battery powered Lime Scooters in South Lake Tahoe :eek:
View attachment 48032

If the irresponsibility that these scooters have displayed in the last two weeks has any correlation to E-bikes, we are in big trouble! :facepalm:

We are supposed to be getting Lime bike share in my little town in the next few months. Hoping the scooters don't follow.
 

Erik Timmerman

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Have you guys ever seen an Eliptigo? We saw one today, and my daughter says "At least it's not an e-bike". :roflmao:
 

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