eBike Drones and eBikes!

[tball]

I don't get why anybody cares if someone else is using a quiet electric motor instead of pedaling their bike.

There is already enormous conflict between users on many paths and trails driving a push a to ban all bikes. Here's one example:


20 mph e-bikes are just too fast for many paths.

Here's a histogram I grabbed from Garmin Connect of the average speed of cyclists with a Garmin device:

A typical cyclist will probably be significantly slower than a more serious cyclist who buys a Garmin. Why do folks expect that 20 MPH e-bikes should be treated the same as much slower non-motorized bikes?

E-bikes impact non-motorized cyclists when they get us banned from places we've previously been able to ride.

 

[Rod9301]

There is already enormous conflict between users on many paths and trails driving a push a to ban all bikes. Here's one example:


20 mph e-bikes are just too fast for many paths.

Here's a histogram I grabbed from Garmin Connect of the average speed of cyclists with a Garmin device:

View attachment 54620


A typical cyclist will probably be significantly slower than a more serious cyclist who buys a Garmin. Why do folks expect that 20 MPH e-bikes should be treated the same as much slower non-motorized bikes?

E-bikes impact non-motorized cyclists when they get us banned from places we've previously been able to ride.

I can tell you that even though the motor cuts off at 20, at least on dirt, it's pretty hard to go past 17.

Anyway, all this talk is not about bike trails, it's about mountain biking.
And I've never seen one mountain biker who didn't say, I'll get one eventually.

At least among the serious, skilled riders.
Like one guy said,. What's the downsid

 

[François Pugh]

There is already enormous conflict between users on many paths and trails driving a push a to ban all bikes. Here's one example:


20 mph e-bikes are just too fast for many paths.

Here's a histogram I grabbed from Garmin Connect of the average speed of cyclists with a Garmin device:

View attachment 54620
A typical cyclist will probably be significantly slower than a more serious cyclist who buys a Garmin. Why do folks expect that 20 MPH e-bikes should be treated the same as much slower non-motorized bikes?

E-bikes impact non-motorized cyclists when they get us banned from places we've previously been able to ride.

So it's about speed. Are these the same folk who would put 20 mph speed limits on all city streets, speed limits on ski hills and bring back the national 55 mph speed limit?
BTW average speed is a lot lower than maximum speed. As for riding too fast for conditions, maybe we could search through the existing laws and find some stuff like reckless driving, etc. and apply it to cyclists (electric or otherwise); we have no problem doing that with speed limits.

 

[Philpug]

There is already enormous conflict between users on many paths and trails driving a push a to ban all bikes. Here's one example:


20 mph e-bikes are just too fast for many paths.

Here's a histogram I grabbed from Garmin Connect of the average speed of cyclists with a Garmin device:

View attachment 54620
A typical cyclist will probably be significantly slower than a more serious cyclist who buys a Garmin. Why do folks expect that 20 MPH e-bikes should be treated the same as much slower non-motorized bikes?

E-bikes impact non-motorized cyclists when they get us banned from places we've previously been able to ride.

It sounds like this is a problem with cycling etiquette and poor trail design and nothing to do with ebikes. There is no mention of ebikes and it sounds like this has been a long running problem.

 

[tball]

It sounds like this is a problem with cycling etiquette and poor trail design and nothing to do with ebikes. There is no mention of ebikes and it sounds like this has been a long running problem.

Yes, it's a long-running problem and that trail needs millions of dollars of improvements for which there are limited funds.

Adding 20 MPH e-bikes to the mix makes it worse. Much worse. I've personally seen e-bikes exacerbating the problem on these trails multiple times. Motorized bikes that powerful simply don't belong on this trail and many others. It's even worse since they are often ridden by inexperienced cyclists.

On the other hand, I think high powered e-bikes are great on trails like the newly built US-36 bikeway and in bike lanes on roads. E-bikes make bicycle commuting practical when it otherwise isn't, and that's good for all cyclists. I agree with the bicycle lobby that more bikes on the road the better, both motorized and non-motorized.

I think there really needs to be a lesser class of e-bikes those currently available. 20 MPH is just too fast for many multi-use paths and mountain bike trails. Take a look at this graph again where the average non-motorized cyclist speed is around 15 MPH:

Why did the big e-bike industry in the US push for 20 MPH and 750 Watts bikes when in the EU they are limited to 15.5 MPH and 250 Watts?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

I'd be fine with the lower powered EU bikes being used much more broadly. 250W and 15.5 MPH makes sense. It's the high powered 750W, 20 MPH US bikes that simply don't belong on many multi-use paths and mountain bike trails, IMO.

I think the great opportunity with the geofencing @epic described is to have one ebike that can be high, low, and non powered where appropriate as defined by local trail managers.

 

[Philpug]

Why did the big e-bike industry in the US push for 20 MPH and 750 Watts bikes when in the EU they are limited to 15.5 MPH and 250 Watts?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

I'd be fine with the lower powered EU bikes being used much more broadly. 250W and 15.5 MPH makes sense. It's the high powered 750W, 20 MPH US bikes that simply don't belong on many multi-use paths and mountain bike trails, IMO.

I think the great opportunity with the geofencing @epic described is to have one ebike that can be high, low, and non powered where appropriate as defined by local trail managers.

This is where you and I agree, I see no need for the higher speed limits on the eBikes...I would sooner see smaller and lighter drive trails like the Fuzua and by encorporating them will allow the bikes to get lighter at the same time. But..we are Americans and have to supersize everything from our meals to vehicles with ridiculous power like the Dodge Demon or Hellcat.

As far as the geofencing...it's just not going to happen.

We spent a couple of days at Interbike where there was a solid mix of people both on eBikes and regular bikes and you know what? There was not one incident with riders going too fast up trails and getting in the way and this was a solid mix of experienced and inexperienced riders. Everyone enjoyed just riding. I see all this separation and segregation as a solution to a perceived problem that I have yet to see anywhere I have riden.

 

[Andy Mink]

There is already enormous conflict between users on many paths and trails driving a push a to ban all bikes. Here's one example:


20 mph e-bikes are just too fast for many paths.

Here's a histogram I grabbed from Garmin Connect of the average speed of cyclists with a Garmin device:

View attachment 54620
A typical cyclist will probably be significantly slower than a more serious cyclist who buys a Garmin. Why do folks expect that 20 MPH e-bikes should be treated the same as much slower non-motorized bikes?

E-bikes impact non-motorized cyclists when they get us banned from places we've previously been able to ride.

After watching the video one thing popped into my head. Wouldn't this be a great co-project for riders, runners, and walkers to get together and at least assist the city in making the trail more user friendly? Maybe the do, but I only heard "the city needs to do something". They may not be able to widen the path but they certainly could assist the city with sign installation, strip painting, removal of vegetation from the edges, etc. Perhaps Denver Parks has a volunteer coordinator to put such projects together?

 

[scott43]

We spent a couple of days at Interbike where there was a solid mix of people both on eBikes and regular bikes and you know what? There was not one incident with riders going too fast up trails and getting in the way and this was a solid mix of experienced and inexperienced riders. Everyone enjoyed just riding. I see all this separation and segregation as a solution to a perceived problem that I have yet to see anywhere I have riden.

Remember you're in a place with a bunch of keeners and people who are trying to sell you something... That's not indicative of the real-world.

 

[cantunamunch]

Remember you're in a place with a bunch of keeners and people who are trying to sell you something... That's not indicative of the real-world.

not even a micro cosm?

 

[Philpug]

@Andy Mink, you have a couple of decades of park management experience, do you think it is anywhere in the budget or consideration to set up geofencing?

 

[Philpug]

Remember you're in a place with a bunch of keeners and people who are trying to sell you something... That's not indicative of the real-world.

Not really, at the time the mountain was open to consumers and everyday recreational riders which over the weekend outnumbers the industry people 2:1.

 

[Andy Mink]

@Andy Mink, you have a couple of decades of park management experience, do you think it is anywhere in the budget or consideration to set up geofencing?

No. Park departments (and libraries) are generally the first casualties of a bad economy and the last beneficiaries of a good economy. It doesn't matter at what level of government. Numerous studies have shown that parks and other recreational opportunities have a positive impact on crime in an area yet law enforcement gets the money. Parks and trails raise property values. But, when underfunded, the parks and trails become havens for crime. That will definitely drop property values. We are a reactive rather than proactive society.

If cities and counties can't keep their multi-use paths clean and safe, legitimate use drops. Reno/Sparks has a great path along the Truckee River but many people don't feel safe due to the homeless issue. Camps are set up right on the path with the accompanying undesirable side effects--feces, urine, needles, and so on. Until the public lets the politicians know more money needs to go to their parks departments, that won't change.

Geofencing won't be a blip on a department's radar until the bigger picture is addressed.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

@Andy Mink, you have a couple of decades of park management experience, do you think it is anywhere in the budget or consideration to set up geofencing?

Why would geo-fencing cost the land manager anything? I mean it would cost them the amount of time that it takes for them to contact the eBike Association and have themselves added to the geo-fence list. Maybe a little bit more time figuring out the lat-long coordinates of their fenced area.

 

[Seldomski]

It is possible to spoof GPS location. So, geo-fencing can be disabled by spending more $$. Basically, you strap a small gadget to the GPS antenna and tell the bike it is somewhere else. Currently, the gadgets to do this are somewhat large and for lab use, but these lab units have a lot more functionality than would be required to tell the bike it was sitting on your driveway. I am sure if there were demand, miniature versions would become 'a thing.'

The other easier hack could be to cut off/destroy the GPS antenna on the e-bike. I guess it depends on how the bike works. Does it require a GPS lock for the motor to run? That seems like a bad design to me. Imagine a wreck where you break the GPS antenna. Now you are hurt and the bike won't run because the GPS antenna is broken? In any case, there are likely many ways to hotwire the e-bike in nondescript ways to get around geo-fencing.

Drones require GPS to work as part of their autopilot, so GPS spoofing doesn't really work for those. If they lose GPS, it will usually force the autopilot to land ASAP. Some anti-drone tech works this way.

 

[tball]

Geofencing is inevitable. How it's applied to e-bikes is yet to be seen.

Various cities including Denver are looking at geofencing to manage the swarm of e-scooters infesting urban areas:
http://www.govtech.com/fs/Is-Geofencing-the-Answer-to-Cities-Electric-Scooter-Challenges.html

Here's the latest, almost daily, article about the e-scooter chaos in Denver:
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/10/01/denver-dockless-scooters-confusion-injuries/

15 MPH e-scooters running around the sidewalks of Downtown Denver is even more ridiculous than 20 MPH e-bikes on the Cherry Creek Path. Hopefully, at some point, the rules for both will be sorted out applying some common sense. Same goes with e-bikes on non-motorized mountain trails.

The geofencing technology will soon be cheap and ubiquitous thanks to drones and scooters. Requiring it in some e-bikes to allow their exemption from the motorized vehicle laws seems reasonable.

 

[Seldomski]

A scooter that is owned and maintained by a company is different from an e-bike that you personally own. I could see geo-fencing being a feature for a rental fleet of e-bikes with no central parking...

E-scooters are tracked remotely since they are not parked in a secured building. So they already have continuous tracking with GPS and are thus 'easy' to geo-fence. The scooters share common hardware and software, so updates to geofence borders would be easier to enforce since the city is dealing with one owner. I would guess the GPS is decent, but will get confused at times, which could have injurious results if you are near the geofence boundary. So even doing this for a scooter could be problematic.

Implementing this tech on an e-bike is going to cost $$ and I don't think the customer will be interested in it as a feature. It would have to be mandated by law to make it into the product.

 

[Josh Matta]

Drones require GPS to work as part of their autopilot, so GPS spoofing doesn't really work for those. If they lose GPS, it will usually force the autopilot to land ASAP. Some anti-drone tech works this way.

Not all drones have auto pilot, and even those that do can use 3rd party GPS and FC software. Its the reason Ill never buy a DJI product. The longest range drones out there are self built, and are basically immune to jamming.....and it currently illegal for the government or a private entity to even try except in cases of national security.

The current control and video range is somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-70 miles with spectrum hoping on the control frequency and the ability to manually change video channel, with 3rd party and self programmed GPS navigation if control and/or video is lost.

 

[luliski]

So its annoys you we should ban it?

I did not say this.

 

[Rod9301]

This is where you and I agree, I see no need for the higher speed limits on the eBikes...I would sooner see smaller and lighter drive trails like the Fuzua and by encorporating them will allow the bikes to get lighter at the same time. But..we are Americans and have to supersize everything from our meals to vehicles with ridiculous power like the Dodge Demon or Hellcat.

As far as the geofencing...it's just not going to happen.

We spent a couple of days at Interbike where there was a solid mix of people both on eBikes and regular bikes and you know what? There was not one incident with riders going too fast up trails and getting in the way and this was a solid mix of experienced and inexperienced riders. Everyone enjoyed just riding. I see all this separation and segregation as a solution to a perceived problem that I have yet to see anywhere I have riden.

Exactly

 

[Rod9301]

Remember you're in a place with a bunch of keeners and people who are trying to sell you something... That's not indicative of the real-world.

I ride a lot in Tahoe, on an Enduro e bike, and I'm not aware of any conflicts, ever.