Does the collective wisdom on this site promote Cross-under skiing?

[Mike King]

The problem with extend to change edges is that it often drives the CoM inside rather than allowing the CoM to move inside as the feet travel away from the body. Perhaps a better way to think of it is that the lower body leads the way. You want the knees to move in first. As the feet then travel out, the pelvis can move toward the snow (e.g. down, not in). The pelvis and upper body winds up inside not because they traveled there, but because the feet traveled out.

My favorite video:


Mike

 

[Hamid S]

So far, I’m able to form the following conclusions:

1) Cross-over skiing is synonymous to transition-by-extension
2) Cross-through/under skiing is synonymous to transition-by-flexion
3) Transition-by-extension is not some irredeemable sin that should be avoided like the plague
4) Some believe that one should be skilled in both and even could switch up between the two as needed
5) Some believe that if one is skilled enough in transition-by-flexion, there should be hardly any need to resort to transition-by-extension

Have I summarized it correctly?

Now a little about where I am with my skiing development:
For more than a decade I had skied using transition-by-extension, which had enabled me to get out of the back seat in steep terrain.
While extending my knees and hips during transition, I ensured my CoM moved down the fall line by reaching down the hill for my pole plant. Of course, this got my skis to release the old edge, rotate and engage the new.
As I got better, I stumbled into centered skiing as opposed to pressuring the shins all the time.

Recently, I came across this site and have learned about the following:
1) Tipping the skis and edge angle – never had given this any thought. My understanding was that I pressure the tips to control the turn radius and whatever happens after that happens.
2) Angulation – didn’t know about it as a separate component. I had seen it in other skiers on the hill but figured it was a byproduct of steep terrain, short turn radius and speed.
3) Separation – I had this ill-informed notion that one’s shoulders should be facing the fall line as much as possible. I never factored the hips into that. Hip alignment is in fact what I’m still struggling with.
4) Tip lead – I honestly thought it was perfectly fine to the inside ski tip to lead the outside ski. My understanding at this point is that there is a connection between tip lead and hip alignment mentioned above.
5) Transition by flexion – This is the first modification I tried since learning about it and it has worked out very nicely. I didn’t have any issues adapting to this technique on groomed terrain of varying steepness. It certainly pretty much eliminated any vertical movement of my torso.

So, my first day of skiing after my self-education journey through this site, I worked on #5 the entire day and had excellent success. I also opened up my stance which I understood to be a good idea in general.

Second day out two weeks later, I tried to work on #2 and 3 by performing a Deb Armstrong drill. Use my outside hand to pressure the outside hip to promote angulation, and use the inside hand to carry my poles like a torch with my arm pointing down the fall line to promote separation. I had partial success with this drill in the sense that drill itself went well and I could feel the increase in both angulation and separation. But the skiing afterward was flawed because of the persistent tip lead.

Next time out, I will try to work on hip alignment and pulling back the new inside ski to reduce tip lead.

Any and all input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Flex the inside ankle as you open the outside knee. Think about applying just a little pressure on the outside of the tip of the inside ski as though you were raising the tail of that ski and pointing that knee into the turn, but don't actually pick up the tail of the ski.

 

[crgildart]

It's just another style of skiing aimed at achieving different objectives, just like bump technique, SL, GS/DH, or park skiing. Some of the core physics is the same but some is very different.

 

[CalG]

The pleasure of both styles is in the release from resistance.

In the cross over, the amplitude of the head moving over the base and down the mountain,free falling, only to be again caught by the base as the skis turn under again, can be just that much more than the more subtle efforts of relaxing the old stance leg.

Whew! That was a long sentence! ;-)

 

[Dakine]

Wanta carve a turn?

Pull your foot back.
Lift the big toe which forces the ball of your foot into the footbed and cocks your ankle to tip the ski.
Apply ever increasing pressure as the ski hooks up.
Then lift the little toe of the new inside ski to get it carving too.
Don't let too much tip lead develop or you will be in the back seat for the next turn.
As the turn develops keep focusing on where your toes are pointing until...
Pull your foot back........

When I got it just right I imagine lasers shooting from the ends of my big and little toes lighting my way down the hill.....
This was explained to me by a PSIA tech committee ex member.....

It really works, modern turns start with the toes....
No up, no down just roll and go.

 

[DoryBreaux]

 

[Tony S]

If I flex to release and extend to maintain contact am I crossing over or under?

Well, that was one of @razie 's points.

 

[CalG]

Wanta carve a turn?

Pull your foot back.
Lift the big toe which forces the ball of your foot into the footbed and cocks your ankle to tip the ski.
Apply ever increasing pressure as the ski hooks up.
Then lift the little toe of the new inside ski to get it carving too.
Don't let too much tip lead develop or you will be in the back seat for the next turn.
As the turn develops keep focusing on where your toes are pointing until...
Pull your foot back........

When I got it just right I imagine lasers shooting from the ends of my big and little toes lighting my way down the hill.....
This was explained to me by a PSIA tech committee ex member.....

It really works, modern turns start with the toes....
No up, no down just roll and go.

Practice those toe movements until they are so engrained that they become natural.
Then YOU can ski like, and look like a PSIA tech committee ex member.
If that is what you want.........


Old fashioned turns have more variety ;-)

 

[asolo]

This dude extends, right?


Doing only flex to release is very tiresome for me. But I can't ski either way anyway.

 

[François Pugh]

In advanced skiing the centre of mass and the skis have very distinct flight paths. Flex to release aids in developing this; it's easier to keep the skis coming around as you flex to release. However sometimes one wants the centre of mass' flight path to gain altitude, which is easily gained with the extend to release transition. Once you have practiced flex to release enough to make it natural movement, you can shelf the terminology and just ski - ski your body where it needs to be to control the skis' flight path and ski the skis where they need to be to control the body's flight path.

 

[JESinstr]

Question?
Should we ever not be flexing? Shouldn't the vernacular be "shorten" and "lengthen" ? After all, if the intent is to turn the ski needs to get on edge and the outside leg needs to find a position to deal with the turning forces. Both of these conditions are not exclusive of each other.

In manys ways, skiing is just like being on a bicycle. One leg gets long (to a supporting power position) as the other gets short (allowing for the creation of angles). Only in skiing IMO, the shortening of the leg is a very proactive and a key part of the process.

One final opine.... why are we ever talking about release? Release only means loss of control. When I decide to make a turn, my thoughts are about rolling (from the foot up) to my new edges ASAP!

 

[CalG]

Question?
Should we ever not be flexing? Shouldn't the vernacular be "shorten" and "lengthen" ? After all, if the intent is to turn the ski needs to get on edge and the outside leg needs to find a position to deal with the turning forces. Both of these conditions are not exclusive of each other.

In manys ways, skiing is just like being on a bicycle. One leg gets long (to a supporting power position) as the other gets short (allowing for the creation of angles). Only in skiing IMO, the shortening of the leg is a very proactive and a key part of the process.

One final opine.... why are we ever talking about release? Release only means loss of control. When I decide to make a turn, my thoughts are about rolling (from the foot up) to my new edges ASAP!

The momentary loss of control is the true joy in the expression of skiing, for some.

 

[JESinstr]

The momentary loss of control is the true joy in the expression of skiing, for some.

As it states, "For Some" . For me, the Joy comes not from losing control but from finding my way back into control.

 

[Dakine]

Practice those toe movements until they are so engrained that they become natural.
Then YOU can ski like, and look like a PSIA tech committee ex member.
If that is what you want.........


Old fashioned turns have more variety ;-)

I can still put on my old Kastle 208 cm National Team, Worldcup Super G skis and skid them around OK after a few runs.
I don't have much of a mountain to work with so I do everything I can to make it interesting.
Nothing like an old school sg ski with a groove down the middle for going straight at warp speed.
But I love what modern skis have become and try to use them well.

 

[CalG]

I can still put on my old Kastle 208 cm National Team, Worldcup Super G skis and skid them around OK after a few runs.
I don't have much of a mountain to work with so I do everything I can to make it interesting.
Nothing like an old school sg ski with a groove down the middle for going straight at warp speed.
But I love what modern skis have become and try to use them well.

Old school is skid them around
New school is slarve
https://www.skimag.com/ski-resort-life/how-slarve-shane-mcconkey#&gid=ci01fe1c528044258f&pid=ad-5

What was old, is new again.

 

[Dakine]

Being able to turn a carved turn into a skidded one or a skidded one into a carved one.....all good drills and fun.
Carved turns don't slow you down so they have limited usefulness.
I'm trying to get a strong stivot move into my bag of tricks but that's a hard one.

 

[François Pugh]

Old school is skid them around
New school is slarve
https://www.skimag.com/ski-resort-life/how-slarve-shane-mcconkey#&gid=ci01fe1c528044258f&pid=ad-5

What was old, is new again.

I can still put on my old Kastle 208 cm National Team, Worldcup Super G skis and skid them around OK after a few runs.
I don't have much of a mountain to work with so I do everything I can to make it interesting.
Nothing like an old school sg ski with a groove down the middle for going straight at warp speed.
But I love what modern skis have become and try to use them well.

I have a pair of Kastle 208 cm National Team, Super G skis, the first generation with steel, not the lighter Mg ones. I played hooky from the old school, so no skidding for me. They really don't like going sideways either, so no slarving either for me on those skis. I keep them razor sharp tip to tail, 0.5 base, 2 side and Carve. Flex to release is fun with them too, but you need to get them up to speed, which is hard to do in Ontario. I can get maybe 3 high g turns out of them before running out of room, and only 2 of them satisfyingly good at Blue Mountain Collingwood.

 

[Dakine]

I think I remember measuring mine at 70m radius.
Your observation of good for 3 turns down a Midwest hill is exactly right.
But the stability at speed....
A pic of me back in the '70's in the Boyne Highlands downhill.
Got 3rd place.
Flexon boots.

 

[Noodler]

I think I remember measuring mine at 70m radius.
Your observation of good for 3 turns down a Midwest hill is exactly right.
But the stability at speed....
A pic of me back in the '70's in the Boyne Highlands downhill.
Got 3rd place.
Flexon boots.
View attachment 69423

I raced in those same boots (and in the red and gray Flexon Comp), but I was on Dynastar race skis with Geze bindings. It looks like those bindings might be Geze too?