• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Does the collective wisdom on this site promote Cross-under skiing?

Skisailor

Laziest Skier on the Mountain
Skier
Joined
Aug 4, 2018
Posts
280
Location
Bozeman, Montana
I nominate this as "Best Post" on the Ski School forum for this season.

What hasn't been pointed out yet is that I have rarely seen anyone able to actually switch up between a flexion release and an extension release in their skiing. I'm talking about regular Joes, not ski instructors. Our brains get wired into specific timing for skiing, so being adept at both requires a high level of skiing skill that most skiers don't possess. Thus, if you have to choose one release pattern, there's no question what I would recommend; a flex to release can be used everywhere, in any condition, and at any time. That cannot be said for an extension release which can often lead to skiers to "shopping" for a turn in difficult terrain.

Interesting. I work on this regularly with my higher level local students who participate in a lesson series (typically 5-10 lessons over 5 weeks). We work toward practice runs where we actually change up between the 3 release patterns every 4 turns. Extend both legs for 4 turns, flex both legs for 4 turns, flex the new inside ski while extending the new outside ski for 4 turns. Then repeat. It can certainly be done and not just by instructors.

It’s amazing for developing versatility and breaking out of ingrained movement patterns. (As with the OP, virtually every student I have worked with comes equipped only with an “extend both legs” to release pattern - the least effective and versatile of the 3, IMHO).
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
So the reason why I say it doesnt work in gullies and by gullies I mean pretty narrow and steep gullies, is because the middle part is the lowest, and if you lowest at the lowest point, its hard to absorb the high point which is actually the sides.


Also on truly steep terrain like in this picture

54520347_10214247881493280_1085329405246439424_o.jpg


you can bet I am extending to make sure my transition is unweighted, a caught edge could hurt or kill you .. or in something like this chute


the thing is IMO you should just learn to go from turn to turn all different way and disassociated the edge change with flexing or extending, and learn to do it weighted and unweighted. In actual all mountain skiing Ill use what ever works for what best suits that particular turn.
 

Rod9301

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Posts
2,443
So the reason why I say it doesnt work in gullies and by gullies I mean pretty narrow and steep gullies, is because the middle part is the lowest, and if you lowest at the lowest point, its hard to absorb the high point which is actually the sides.


Also on truly steep terrain like in this picture

54520347_10214247881493280_1085329405246439424_o.jpg


you can bet I am extending to make sure my transition is unweighted, a caught edge could hurt or kill you .. or in something like this chute


the thing is IMO you should just learn to go from turn to turn all different way and disassociated the edge change with flexing or extending, and learn to do it weighted and unweighted. In actual all mountain skiing Ill use what ever works for what best suits that particular turn.
In steep and narrow terrain i also up extend, more of a hop turn though.

But the better i get at flex and release, the more i do it in steep terrain.

A couple of days ago, i skied a59 degree couloir, in powder, and i was able to flex to release most turns, except for the first two.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
powder changes things, Flex to release works better, also tends to take away the fall consequence
 

oldschoolskier

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Posts
4,229
Location
Ontario Canada
There are at least 20 or 30 different methods (like lots more) of doing turns, some better than others some more flexible in application, some for speed, some for absolute control in dangerous conditions.

Considering one to be better than others is foolish. Those that ski extremely well can usually ski all of them and use them as needed at that moment. In some cases combining several through a turn profile to meet specific needs at times.

IMHO learn and practicing variations to be proficient at all of them is best, master those that you use most. Don’t get hung up on one as the be all end all, as you’ll sudden learn it isn’t.

Ski, have fun and enjoy the variaty in what works.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,383
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
Sure there are times and places for extension releases. In steeps, however, the extension move can be quite consequential, as the risk of being high-sided increases with an extension move.

Mike
 

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
We work toward practice runs where we actually change up between the 3 release patterns every 4 turns. Extend both legs for 4 turns, flex both legs for 4 turns, flex the new inside ski while extending the new outside ski for 4 turns. Then repeat.

I read this this morning and tried it a couple of hours later in some turning to spring snow. It's great, I loved it and yes I could easily switch between the three releases. In that snow the two footed flex worked best, but it was illuminating to do it this way. I like isolation drills. Sometimes I'll have students do 4 turns with their turns coming from flex and extend, 4 without any F/E - all coming from rotary, then 4 combining the 2 foci.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
6,314
Location
Denver, CO
I read this this morning and tried it a couple of hours later in some turning to spring snow. It's great, I loved it and yes I could easily switch between the three releases. In that snow the two footed flex worked best, but it was illuminating to do it this way. I like isolation drills. Sometimes I'll have students do 4 turns with their turns coming from flex and extend, 4 without any F/E - all coming from rotary, then 4 combining the 2 foci.

In my experience, I have seen most skiers take "seasons" worth of work to learn how to properly flex to release (along with flex to engage) and lose the extension (up move) in their skiing. I would need to see video evidence of skiers who are accomplished at these two types of releases and able to seamlessly switch between them in a single run. Until I see such evidence, my own personal beliefs and observations will stand unchallenged.
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Posts
1,366
Location
Truckee
In my experience, I have seen most skiers take "seasons" worth of work to learn how to properly flex to release (along with flex to engage) and lose the extension (up move) in their skiing.

It's one of those things that requires plenty of focused practice, for sure. It may be a small minority of students who will have the dedication, who will sacrifice time just cruising and having fun, to master this in the shortest time.
 

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
In my experience, I have seen most skiers take "seasons" worth of work to learn how to properly flex to release (along with flex to engage) and lose the extension (up move) in their skiing. I would need to see video evidence of skiers who are accomplished at these two types of releases and able to seamlessly switch between them in a single run. Until I see such evidence, my own personal beliefs and observations will stand unchallenged.

It all depends on your standards. You're obviously saying that a flex to release is not "proper" according to a very detailed defined set of criteria, and that any deviation from that standard is not "properly" flexing to release.

However a release which is triggered by a flexion move is flexing to release. Period. Basic movement. No scorecard.

I'm pulling up my legs, there is no extension. I feel no need to prove it to you via video, but for others reading, it ain't so hard to experiment with.

Let the folks who set the rules worry about whether you're doing it right.
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,328
Location
The Bull City
I'd love to see folks try that tippy turn tappy pole stuff in the bumps..
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
6,314
Location
Denver, CO
It all depends on your standards. You're obviously saying that a flex to release is not "proper" according to a very detailed defined set of criteria, and that any deviation from that standard is not "properly" flexing to release.

However a release which is triggered by a flexion move is flexing to release. Period. Basic movement. No scorecard.

I'm pulling up my legs, there is no extension. I feel no need to prove it to you via video, but for others reading, it ain't so hard to experiment with.

Let the folks who set the rules worry about whether you're doing it right.

I agree for the most part. I don't set the standards, but there are generally accepted movement patterns that define whether it's actually flexing to release without any up movement. I don't need to see video of any particular skier on this forum (although that would be great), but to start I'd like to see video of ANY skier mixing and mashing both releases throughout their run. I've just never seen it and I think it would be interesting to review.
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Posts
1,619
Location
Ontario
However a release which is triggered by a flexion move is flexing to release. Period. Basic movement. No scorecard.
Careful with that one - I've seen many that start to flex at the end of the turn, but just before releasing and switching the edges, push slightly or just stop flexing. That's not a flex to release, even if it starts with a flex, as the when it comes down to the final edge disengagement, it's still a small hop that gets one off the edges...

The issue with why it takes long to master it is not, in my experience, about doing it a couple times at will - I don't suppose that's terribly difficult - but to own it and make it part of your every day skiing, if so inclined, I.e. sustain it in a run top to bottom... the first thing that happens is usually going a lot faster than usual ;) with the quads on fire :eek:
 
Last edited:

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
Pass Pulled
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,338
In Spring snow I flex to release on all my turns. It's the only way I feel in control, unless I'm plowing through at a high rate of speed.
If I'm trying to ski shorter turns it's my go-to approach. And yes I can sustain it top to bottom and no, my quads don't burn at all. It is more tiring for sure, and I'm not saying I'm doing a great job at it, as I'm not a great skier, but I am definitely not hopping. I'm pulling my legs up to release.
 

skix

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Posts
399
Location
...
The issue with why it takes long to master it is not, in my experience, about doing it a couple times at will - I don't suppose that's terribly difficult - but to own it and make it part of your every day skiing, if so inclined, I.e. sustain it in a run top to bottom... the first thing that happens is usually going a lot faster than usual ;) with the quads on fire :eek:

A few seasons and about a hundred ski days ago I was a z-turner that had alot of days end because one or the other quad muscles gave out. I blamed that on the constant attempts to brake since that was about the only way to control speed I knew. Reading Pugski finally convinced me I had to learn new technique even though I'd come a long way and rarely fell. My first focus was to learn to carve well but at first I skidded nearly every turn initiation. Part of the problem was dull 103 wide skis but the bigger problem was standing too tall with too stiff legs.

A couple of things made a huge difference and finally got me carving. First was stance. I got lower and more forward. Second was flex to release. I remember reading threads about using your feet and rolling your ankles to transition while softening your legs. First few times I got it right were a revelation. The infinity move, the concept of defensive skiing (braking), counter and angulation, and a few other concepts really kicked in and worked together for me. Haven't looked back and use flex-to-release all over the mountain now.

Point of all this is that for me the quads stopped burning when I stopped z-turning. More fun less fatigue.
 

Sponsor

Top