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Does the collective wisdom on this site promote Cross-under skiing?

Hamid S

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
Skier
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Posts
36
Location
SoCal
Hi everyone,

Based on reading through & digesting various discussions on this site, I've started to practice and adapt to transition-by-shortening-old-outside-leg style of skiing during my last couple of ski outings and I like it!

However, by reading through various glossaries and coaching discussions on the internet, I've come to conclude that the aforementioned style or technique pretty much equates to cross-through, or cross-under at the extreme, style as opposed to crossing over.

I've also read that each, cross-over vs cross-through/under, have their merits and disadvantages, and can be utilized under various skiing conditions or just for fun! Furthermore, I've come to realize that how I have skied for the past decade or so had been using the cross-over style.

Once again, I am really digging the experience of cross-through/under skiing, but I would like to know if disadvantages of cross-over skiing far outweigh the benefits under all circumstances? And whether or not it should be avoided all together?

TIA
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
I'm all for it. Flexing the new inside leg to start a turn is my personal go-to initiation.
Extending the new outside leg works, too, and I use it and teach it as well. It's easier to teach.

Some people do both simultaneously. Others do stuff with their ankles first and insist on that.
There is personal choice involved.
This thread could get interesting.
 
Last edited:

Bad Bob

I golf worse than I ski.
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Dec 2, 2015
Posts
5,843
Location
West of CDA South of Canada
A place for everything and everything in its place.
Bumps, cross under.
Heavy loose snow, cross over.
Deep snow, normally cross over.
In the trees, whatever is needed.
Tired legs, cross over.
Groomer zooming, if it feels good do it.

If it seems like a good idea at the time, you are probably right.
 

T-Square

Terry
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Enfield, NH
Add it to your toolbox of movements. It’s fun and looks cool. The more versatile you are the better you will be able to handle the conditions you meet while skiing.

I learned by attempting to keep my eyeballs the same height off the snow as I go from turn to turn.
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
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I don't really like the cross-over or cross-under terminology, it doesn't seem to convey anything interesting. Of course, the body crosses OVER the skis and the skis cross UNDER the body unless you have some very weird body deformity... those names seem randomly assigned (i.e. you need some semantical behind-the-scenes knowledge to understand them). The issue is not even how we cross the skis - the issue really is how we release the skis!

What really matters is whether you are flexing to release the ski vs extending to release and hop off the ski.

Flexing
The benefits of flexing to release are a smooth release, where you retain control of the skis at all times. Even if your timing is off and you are disconnected from the snow like me below, the hips being low and knee flexion allows you both instant pressure control and foot tipping into the next turn, i.e. complete ski control from the lower body.

black-low-c.jpg


The other benefit of flexing to release is that you are flexed in transition and that way you can use foot tipping. When your legs are long in transition, you cannot tip the feet and you will end up either waiting to fall back down and create flexion first, or hip dumping... so if your philosophy is to edge and control the ski with the lower body, then you will need flexion!

How deeply you flex is a tactical choice, depending on what turns you're looking to get - the quicker the turns, the more you need to flex. The quicker the need to switch the edges, the more you need to flex.

A good demonstration of the differences is visible in this drill - note how slow tipping is at the beginning with a long leg and how you can speed up the tipping as the knees bend in transition - all the way to the last few turns which are impossible if you don't flex deeply:


Generally the drawback with flexing is that it's harder to coach, you'll need some specific skills to coach flexing effectively into someone's skiing - because beginners will have a hard time with the timing of it and will tend to get tired and also it changes the speed control equation, so you need some serious knowledge and also to do some serious coaching there, otherwise they'll refuse to do it or will lose that quickly.

Extension
The extension will disconnect you from the snow - even if you manage to keep the skis in contact, your hips are launched up and unable to control pressure until you get "back down" or land back on the skis.

The other drawback, already mentioned, is that you cannot tip the skis on edge from the feet, when the knee is not flexed. This explains why those skiers that extend or hop to release will also prefer steering and hip-dumping as opposed to foot tipping and that's why this is such a big deal. It really is as simple as that.

The other problem with the extension is that you are pressuring the skis at the end of the turn - you have to, in order to "hop". This will not allow you to tip the skis early, so it will delay your turns.

The issue of powder is not that relevant IMHO, but I've only skied up to 1 foot deep... the extension has some limited use in hard terrain and avoiding rocks (or jumping over people in bumps :eek:), but it is easier to teach, because most people are used to pushing themselves from foot to foot (i.e. walking/running/skating etc). The thing that I find is that the more they ski like that, the harder it is to teach them flexing, as it is quite counter-intuitive, so they will always be limited in their evolution.

You can see this by trying to do these turns with extension and a long leg and you will find it impossible to do the same turns:


or this:


Weirdness
Some skiers will flex towards the end of the turn and then extend at the last moment, to get off the ski, that combination is kind of weird and pointless for me ;)

p.s. the discussion can get quite a fair bit more detailed and complex as you dig deep into racing and performance skiing and the effects there, but that's the crux of it.
 
Last edited:

Fuller

Semi Local
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Posts
1,522
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Whitefish or Florida
At my current level of skiing I tend to do whatever gets me edge to edge quicker without ruining my upper / lower body separation. Maybe it's just me but I find that a retract to release turn doesn't ruin my hard fought for gains in that department. In other words when I focus solely on a zen like upper body the retraction and tipping is almost natural.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
6,314
Location
Denver, CO
I don't really like the cross-over or cross-under terminology, it doesn't seem to convey anything interesting. Of course, the body crosses OVER the skis and the skis cross UNDER the body unless you have some very weird body deformity... those names seem randomly assigned (i.e. you need some semantical behind-the-scenes knowledge to understand them). The issue is not even how we cross the skis - the issue really is how we release the skis!

What really matters is whether you are flexing to release the ski vs extending to release and hop off the ski.

Flexing
The benefits of flexing to release are a smooth release, where you retain control of the skis at all times. Even if your timing is off and you are disconnected from the snow like me below, the hips being low and knee flexion allows you both instant pressure control and foot tipping into the next turn, i.e. complete ski control from the lower body.

black-low-c.jpg


The other benefit of flexing to release is that you are flexed in transition and that way you can use foot tipping. When your legs are long in transition, you cannot tip the feet and you will end up either waiting to fall back down and create flexion first, or hip dumping... so if your philosophy is to edge and control the ski with the lower body, then you will need flexion!

How deeply you flex is a tactical choice, depending on what turns you're looking to get - the quicker the turns, the more you need to flex. The quicker the need to switch the edges, the more you need to flex.

A good demonstration of the differences is visible in this drill - note how slow tipping is at the beginning with a long leg and how you can speed up the tipping as the knees bend in transition - all the way to the last few turns which are impossible if you don't flex deeply:


Generally the drawback with flexing is that it's harder to coach, you'll need some specific skills to coach flexing effectively into someone's skiing - because beginners will have a hard time with the timing of it and will tend to get tired and also it changes the speed control equation, so you need some serious knowledge and also to do some serious coaching there, otherwise they'll refuse to do it or will lose that quickly.

Extension
The extension will disconnect you from the snow - even if you manage to keep the skis in contact, your hips are launched up and unable to control pressure until you get "back down" or land back on the skis.

The other drawback, already mentioned, is that you cannot tip the skis on edge from the feet, when the knee is not flexed. This explains why those skiers that extend or hop to release will also prefer steering and hip-dumping as opposed to foot tipping and that's why this is such a big deal. It really is as simple as that.

The other problem with the extension is that you are pressuring the skis at the end of the turn - you have to, in order to "hop". This will not allow you to tip the skis early, so it will delay your turns.

The issue of powder is not that relevant IMHO, but I've only skied up to 1 foot deep... the extension has some limited use in hard terrain and avoiding rocks (or jumping over people in bumps :eek:), but it is easier to teach, because most people are used to pushing themselves from foot to foot (i.e. walking/running/skating etc). The thing that I find is that the more they ski like that, the harder it is to teach them flexing, as it is quite counter-intuitive, so they will always be limited in their evolution.

You can see this by trying to do these turns with extension and a long leg and you will find it impossible to do the same turns:


or this:


Weirdness
Some skiers will flex towards the end of the turn and then extend at the last moment, to get off the ski, that combination is kind of weird and pointless for me ;)

p.s. the discussion can get quite a fair bit more detailed and complex as you dig deep into racing and performance skiing and the effects there, but that's the crux of it.

I nominate this as "Best Post" on the Ski School forum for this season.

What hasn't been pointed out yet is that I have rarely seen anyone able to actually switch up between a flexion release and an extension release in their skiing. I'm talking about regular Joes, not ski instructors. Our brains get wired into specific timing for skiing, so being adept at both requires a high level of skiing skill that most skiers don't possess. Thus, if you have to choose one release pattern, there's no question what I would recommend; a flex to release can be used everywhere, in any condition, and at any time. That cannot be said for an extension release which can often lead to skiers to "shopping" for a turn in difficult terrain.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
Learn both but cross under is useful for more of what we do. The only time I really use cross over is when I am doubling or leaping or trying to promote a learning skier ability to move into the turn.

Flex to release also doesnt work in gullies. So it not everywhere.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
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Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,383
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
Learn both but cross under is useful for more of what we do. The only time I really use cross over is when I am doubling or leaping or trying to promote a learning skier ability to move into the turn.

Flex to release also doesnt work in gullies. So it not everywhere.
Depends on how tight and steep. The steeper, the more important FTR is.

Mike
 

Rod9301

Making fresh tracks
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Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Posts
2,443
Learn both but cross under is useful for more of what we do. The only time I really use cross over is when I am doubling or leaping or trying to promote a learning skier ability to move into the turn.

Flex to release also doesnt work in gullies. So it not everywhere.
Why doesn't it work in gullies?
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Posts
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Location
Denver, CO
Why doesn't it work in gullies?

I'm guessing the comment refers to the need to jump over shit in the gullies, but I wouldn't really consider that a "release" in a turn if you're using to avoid an obstacle. But maybe that's not what Josh is referring to.
 

Kneale Brownson

Making fresh tracks forever on the other side
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Posts
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If I flex to release and extend to maintain contact am I crossing over or under?
 

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