Deb Armstrong/Inside leg activity for parallel turns

[markojp]

I don’t think the gentleman’s point was that pivot slips in general are bad, it was more that it has become such an overly emphasized thing to an exaggerated level, especially in the L3 exam apparently.

If you prep people for L3, you know that L3 exams do not just do pivot slips, but pivot slips to short radius turns, to pivot slips, to short radius turns, back to pivot slips. It's about blending skills. We did them in ed staff tryouts as well.. no big deal, no drama, nor special emphasis, just one thing among several.

 

[Disinterested]

The guy with hands in that video is just doing a visualisation exercise of the course.

 

[Mike B]

The guy with hands in that video is just doing a visualisation exercise of the course.

Nooo! I thought he was actually skiing. haha Hands and feet are more similar than you think....am I wrong? He didnt pronate the new outside hand. Why not?
I'm not saying I know either, just asking for education on a "ski thought". My thought is the sub talar joint makes our ankle go one way but our foot wants to move the opposite direction, same with your hands. I was told long ago that it doesnt have the same effect when loaded with pressure, but I have yet to see that assumption with my own testing.

 

[Disinterested]

Don't read too much in to it. Virtually all ski racers do some version of this now before they run and it's not intended to be super techy with the hands, they're just imagining running the course the way they want.

 

[razie]

^ utter waste of gobbedly gook
Random thoughts on zoom do not make a presentation.

compare all that nonsense with this awesome KISS from a modern-day top WC racer.


@JESinstr was correct: if done properly and clearly like that, all you'd have in the instruction forum is just like 5 threads with 3 pages each. Or like 2 short videos with Tina.

 

[Mike B]

Don't read too much in to it. Virtually all ski racers do some version of this now before they run and it's not intended to be super techy with the hands, they're just imagining running the course the way they want.

I realize that.

The point wasn't really about hands, but about how our feet work. It relates to how people talk about tipping but show a tipped position when they do so. Tipping is at the top of the turn and turns into being in tipped as the skis turn and the slope angle changes. Nevermind, it's not worth beating my head against the skitalk wall of death. Toodaloo

 

[razie]

match on page 15. Kinda funny because I ripped Razie for using the term weight and unweight on the skis but thats excatly what it does - call it pressure if you will

no match. You have been weighed and you have been found wanting.

Note: This is a paraphrase from the Old Testament of the Bible (Daniel 5:27), which reads, “Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.”

It is funny because, on further research, weighting also applies to "putting emphasis on something", so one could say we're weighing the inside ski... It would be extremely funny to watch someone explain that to some noob.

so the definitions of weighting include:
1. hold (something) down by placing a heavy object on top of it.
2. attach importance or value to.

 

[LiquidFeet]

If you prep people for L3, you know that L3 exams do not just do pivot slips, but pivot slips to short radius turns, to pivot slips, to short radius turns, back to pivot slips. It's about blending skills. We did them in ed staff tryouts as well.. no big deal, no drama, nor special emphasis, just one thing among several.

Agree. Pivot slips are about so much more that upper body lower body separation. Doing them properly is a worthy skill.

 

[James]

He didnt pronate the new outside hand. Why not?
I'm not saying I know either, just asking for education on a "ski thought".

What little you can see, I’d say he did. Most is off camera.
What is your point about supination/pronation being opposite to “tipping”? Very unclear.

 

[Mike B]

I'm not going to beat this dead horse too much. Let's just say that words do matter. In Razi's video above the first drill shows Tina making a side-slip to an edge set. Most people think of (and display) tipping as the edge set where her knees go up hill. To me that is a "tipped position" not the process of tipping which is the release. Our feet are in two different configurations based on those positions. So, many instructors tell their students to tip their skis but only show them the foot and ankle in an already tipped position. When Tina releases /tips she supinates her right / downhill foot and her ski tips go uphill slightly. When she is tipped she pronates and her ski tips move downhill slightly. The toes and fingers, for that matter move away from the direction that the joint moves. I was just pointing out tge complexity of that on how confusing it could be to a student when we say to tip down the hill but show them being tipped up the hill. The release is the hard part in my opinion. Toppling is just that.
Anyway, sorry to open a can of worms. I'll go back into hibernation now. Ha
P.s. I gave Razi grief about the term weighting as it was brought up in an indoor training session recently and we were schooled on calling it pressure, not weight. That's true, but Razi's defentions of weighting above are also true. So, maybe both pressure and weight are not mutually exclusive and just another very difficult thing to explain to new students.
Edit: The trainer brought up the old weight on the bathroom scale example. But on further thought, we aren't monoskiing, thankfully. So, shouldn't there be two scales - one for each foot? If so, how does that change the issue?

 

[dj61]

The guy with hands in that video is just doing a visualisation exercise of the course.

Brilliant!

 

[markojp]

I'm not going to beat this dead horse too much. Let's just say that words do matter. In Razi's video above the first drill shows Tina making a side-slip to an edge set. Most people think of (and display) tipping as the edge set where her knees go up hill. To me that is a "tipped position" not the process of tipping which is the release. Our feet are in two different configurations based on those positions. So, many instructors tell their students to tip their skis but only show them the foot and ankle in an already tipped position. When Tina releases /tips she supinates her right / downhill foot and her ski tips go uphill slightly. When she is tipped she pronates and her ski tips move downhill slightly. The toes and fingers, for that matter move away from the direction that the joint moves. I was just pointing out tge complexity of that on how confusing it could be to a student when we say to tip down the hill but show them being tipped up the hill. The release is the hard part in my opinion. Toppling is just that.
Anyway, sorry to open a can of worms. I'll go back into hibernation now. Ha
P.s. I gave Razi grief about the term weighting as it was brought up in an indoor training session recently and we were schooled on calling it pressure, not weight. That's true, but Razi's defentions of weighting above are also true. So, maybe both pressure and weight are not mutually exclusive and just another very difficult thing to explain to new students.
Edit: The trainer brought up the old weight on the bathroom scale example. But on further thought, we aren't monoskiing, thankfully. So, shouldn't there be two scales - one for each foot? If so, how does that change the issue?

Evert and Invert.... pronate and supinate are different. The former are movements, the latter, static and based on individual anatomy, RoM, etc...

 

[Mike B]

Brilliant!

There is nothing brilliant about that. Ofcourse that's what he is doing.

 

[Mike B]

Evert and Invert.... pronate and supinate are different. The former are movements, the latter, static and based on individual anatomy, RoM, etc...

Thank you for the correction. Replace everything I've asked about with evert and invert. The guy visualizing the course everts his right hand to go left. Does skiing with our feet work the same way or the opposite?

 

[Mike B]

Thank you for the correction. Replace everything I've asked about with evert and invert. The guy visualizing the course everts his right hand to go left. Does skiing with our feet work the same way or the opposite?

Argh! He inverts his right hand to go left I meant.

 

[James]

Thank you for the correction. Replace everything I've asked about with evert and invert. The guy visualizing the course everts his right hand to go left. Does skiing with our feet work the same way or the opposite?

Same.
Opposite means you’d go the other direction.

Argh! He inverts his right hand to go left I meant.

No, the outside foot everts to get to the big toe side, edge of the ski. The inside foot inverts.

 

[dj61]

There is nothing brilliant about that. Ofcourse that's what he is doing.

Sarcasm

 

[Mike B]

Same.
Opposite means you’d go the other direction.



No, the outside foot everts to get to the big toe side, edge of the ski. The inside foot inverts.

That's what I thought. But...
I was heading into the lift line today moving very slowly at a 90 degree angle to the gate. There is no possible way I could've everted my foot enough to make the turn, so I stood on/weighted/pressured my right foot / outside ski and inverted my foot and it went left with barely any edge angle - steered if you will. My toes pointed in the direction i wanted to go. The pressure started closer to the little toe and as my foot pointed left from inverting (see video above) my ski turned and the pressure moved to the big toe.

So, do we actually evert to start the turn or invert?

 

[James]

So, do we actually evert to start the turn or invert?

You can do both. Invert the soon to be inside ski, or evert the soon to be outside. Inverting the inside will cause your body to incline that way (if you let it) and putting the now outside ski on the big toe edge.

Once you start turning, the forces will go to the outside unless one is leaning so much inside there is no longer much downforce on the outside ski. (Pretty common error with beginner/intermediate)

Easy to play around with it on cat tracks or flattish green trails. Invert the left foot to go left. Takes very little effort to start a shallow turn on a <80mm ski.

Even if you lead with the inside, (kind of what the whole thread is about), you’re going to be near simultaneously everting the outside when things get going. (Speed, turn quickness)

It may somewhat be different in zipper line/comp bumps, where emphasis is on the outside and steering. But then your simultaneous or synchronius movement would be of the inside inverting/steering.

We have general agreement here, I think, that the inside is a better focus, even though the outside does all the work.

 

[JESinstr]

You can do both. Invert the soon to be inside ski, or evert the soon to be outside. Inverting the inside will cause your body to incline that way (if you let it) and putting the now outside ski on the big toe edge.

Easy to play around with it on cat tracks or flattish green trails. Invert the left foot to go left. Takes very little effort to start a shallow turn on a <80mm ski.

Even if you lead with the inside, (kind of what the whole thread is about), you’re going to be near simultaneously everting the outside when things get going. (Speed, turn quickness)

We have general agreement here, I think, that the inside is a better focus, even though the outside does all the work.

And since we can and should do both (simultaneously), the differentiation lies in the active vertical separation between the inside and outside hence the analogy of pedaling a bike only the up pedal is more influential to the outcome.

And yes, a cat track or flattish green is an excellent place to play with this stuff.