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CSIA Interski Technical Comparison

markojp

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Huh? I think that’s correct. at the top of the turn, but way off at and after fall line. By “align “, I assume we are talking about “face”, “face the pelvis”

Karlos, this why I'm loath to jump into online tech discussions. I don't really have the time to post long, succinct replies. My quip wasn't clear, but you're misinterpreting my words. I do know what I'm doing and believe that time is much better used addressing things on the hill or using moderated video MA with a group that trains together. This back and forth of words is hugely time consuming, and I just don't have the bandwidth anymore to delve more deeply. I suspect it's also why many of the good tech posters generally stop posting. If you're in the PNW ever, please shoot me a PM. I'd love to ski with you.
 
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karlo

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Whatever

My understanding is that centripetal force is the force pulling an object towards the center as it travels in an arc. So, the vector is towards the center.

My understanding of a javelin turn is that it helps point the pelvis down the hill. To accomplish that, the closer to the turn finish, the more the inside ski crosses the outside ski.

Aligning the pelvis to have the direction of centripetal force makes sense at the top of the turn, as that force’s vector is the same as the direction of down-the-hill. But, after the fall line, the vectors diverge as the centripetal force’s vector starts pointing uphill, a direction we do not want our pelvis to face.

Pelvic alignment to the direction of the hill is very important. And the javelin turn is a great way to develop that skill, as are other drills.
 

karlo

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Here it is Long Turns Men

I’ve been watching some South Korean ski videos and hit upon these. Don’t know who the Korean is in the above video, but Sungho Choi can really show how long turns are done.


Anyone want to help me out here and differentiate Type 1, 2, and 3. Type 1, I get. Seems to be a standard flex to release. Type 2 & 3, I see the arms reaching up. Other than that, I do not discern a difference.

In this video, there are four types!


Love his skiing. Love his Pokémon outfit too.

More of his skiing. Great progressions. Great control and discipline throughout.


 

karlo

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The Korean's arm position and timing of pole plants looks off to me. Both men and women. Both short and long turns. I don't like it.
The Korean looks like he's "growing" away from the skis. And up not diagonally.

But that's what Interski is all about.
If I understand correctly the Korean technique is to generate plenty of inclination above the fall line and angulate from fall line onwards. That rising arm is about getting the inclination
Ted raising that new outside shoulder and arm to tilt his torso downhill over the skis:
Here it is, demonstrated, shown in slow motion, and I assume explained,

I had previously Pooh-poohed the Korean’s long turns at Interski. But, now that I understand it, I’ve come to like it the best

Here it is Long Turns Men


He actually makes long turns, turns that are significantly wider than two groomer widths, unlike just about all the others, who are really making medium turns And, he does it without a traverse, with dynamic turns, not park and ride turns. He does that with 165 SL skis. Here’s my analysis of how he does that.

1. At turn initiation, with that upward motion, he delays pressuring the skis, allowing a short radius ski to track a longer radius turn.

2. Having done that, he is very patient in developing higher pressure, again keeping the turn radius.

IMO, the turn symmetry and length could be improved by being more patient coming off max edge angle, but boy, that would be a hairy ride, like running, not walking, a tightrope.

I’m a PSIA Level 2. I’ve never really comprehended and applied DIRT. But, I’m working on using DIRT to analyze his skiing. But, I’m not going to do it on what the skis are doing at various parts of the turn I’m going to do it on what his core is doing, because In think that’s what is paramount in achieving his turn.

The required core stability, I’d say, is pretty intense. His legs are more flex to release. The upward motion, I think, is more an uncurling of the core, accompanied by a raising of the arms, simular to doing crunches on the floor, lowering the pelvis and bent legs while rolling the spine back to the mat and raising the arms above the head. What the Korean is doing is very athletic. An uncurling of a crunch might be considered to be a relaxation. But, I think, to do what he is doing, the core needs to be Rick solid. Think of it as a slow squat, not a collapse into a squat. Intense.

Duration, long and patient. Think real slow squat, down and up.

Rate: faster uncurling, slower curling

Timing: uncurling happens before transition, at the very end of a turn. Curling happens after transition and ends at apex, a long curl.

That’s where I think improvement and a longer turn can be had. Start uncurling earlier, soon after apex, uncurl more slowly, that will take reduce pressure on the skis at the finish, making that part of the turn longer. But, like I said above, it would be a hair-raising ride.

Would appreciate feedback of my analysis.
 
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LiquidFeet

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@karlo, have you ever tried this arm-raise? I have.
A small slightly-backwards-oriented lift of the new outside shoulder does wonders.
It gets the skier onto new edges fast, above the fall line.
If at first one lifts only the shoulder, without all the arm drama, it will be invisible to onlookers.
The skier won't appear dorky as this guy does in his last demo.
The shoulder lift will give a clear indication of what lifting the entire arm can offer.
 

Chris V.

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Here it is, demonstrated, shown in slow motion, and I assume explained
Yep, it seems to be all about generating body English to create big inclination quickly. I'm not a fan of it, but hey, whatever floats your boat. I see the Koreans doing this in medium radius turns, combined with major squaring up to the direction the skis are pointed in the last part of each turn. They don't do this in short radius turns. The short turns look completely different.
 

karlo

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@karlo, have you ever tried this arm-raise? I have.
A small slightly-backwards-oriented lift of the new outside shoulder does wonders.
It gets the skier onto new edges fast, above the fall line.
If at first one lifts only the shoulder, without all the arm drama, it will be invisible to onlookers.
The skier won't appear dorky as this guy does in his last demo.
The shoulder lift will give a clear indication of what lifting the entire arm can offer.
I agree a shoulder lift will help. But, to unpressure the ski for a longer turn will require more mass being moved. I edited my post and added more. Would appreciate your feedback
 

karlo

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That’s where I think improvement and a longer turn can be had. Start uncurling earlier, soon after apex
Thinking about this, I think I’m wrong. Uncurling the core right after apex will contribute to more pressure on the skis, not less. So the curling has to be even slower, more patient, progressing through the apex and will into the finish in order to lengthen the lengthen that part of the turn
 

markojp

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Whatever? Ok.

KSIA. Let us know when they have a big mountain, freeride, park, skier cross, or world cup win... ok, I'll settle for a top 10 in any of the above. Athletic? Yes. Interesting? In it's own narrow way. Efficient? Their function follows form. I'd rather look toward other examples as models where form follows function. Demo tech skiing as a national end doesn't seem to translate into any other international skiing metrics seems to illustrate a shortcoming.
 
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KingGrump

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@karlo, have you ever tried this arm-raise? I have.
A small slightly-backwards-oriented lift of the new outside shoulder does wonders.
It gets the skier onto new edges fast, above the fall line.
If at first one lifts only the shoulder, without all the arm drama, it will be invisible to onlookers.
The skier won't appear dorky as this guy does in his last demo.
The shoulder lift will give a clear indication of what lifting the entire arm can offer.

That shoulder move is well within the tenet of the Holy Grail. Aka the infinity move.

Most technical discussions here center around skis and legs. God forbid if any upper body movement creeps in. Fire and brimstone. Eternal damnation. Yada, yada...

Much of the technical discussions here are aligned with the concept of "skiing to a form".
I like to ski like Marcel too. However I am not in gates much. Most of the time, I am in the weeds.
Personally, I like function over form. Form follows function. Whatever works for me.

Infinity move at the top of the turn.
1596335404767.png

Once we realized active movement of the upper body is not blasphemy. We can talk about what is actually happening without worrying about eternal damnation.

That slightly backward tip of the new outside shoulder allows the skier to actively move the COM down and inside the turn. Closer to the fall line. While the skis take a "faster" and longer track around with reduced weight. The upper body is leading the skis.
It is just a extremely modified variation of the old fashion up un-weighting. A very control throw of the body down the hill.

Variations of that move is very useful all over the hill. Zero radius/speed turns in the steeps, rounder lines in the bumps, etc...
 

karlo

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Whatever? Ok.

KSIA. Let us know when they have a big mountain, freeride, park, skier cross, or world cup win... ok, I'll settle for a top 10 in any of the above. Athletic? Yes. Interesting? In it's own narrow way. Efficient? Their function follows form. I'd rather look toward other examples as models where form follows function. Demo tech skiing as a national end doesn't seem to translate into any other international skiing metrics seems to illustrate a shortcoming.
After watching a number of Korean ski videos this past week, I think their metrics are very different from that of the West’s. It’s like each type of turn, even each type of short turn is defined, each having an defined way of performing it. That doesn’t at all take away from what it is needed in dedication and study to understand skiing, then to teach it. Seems to me a good use of what Korea has, or should I say doesn’t have, big mountains, powder and packed powder. I think it’s condescending to not take their skiing seriously because they lack those things and medals.

Do you expect them to medal in this?


Or this,


Medals in these are what we have defined as good skiing because we have access to these things. To use these things as standards of good skiing and of a good skiing nation is analogous to questions in SAT’s of years past that were heavily biased towards Whites and White culture.

But, whatever. I wrote my post for developing my skiing analysis skills, not for @markojp, who wrote ”KSIA. Let us know when they have a big mountain, freeride, park, skier cross, or world cup win...“
 
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karlo

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have you ever tried this arm-raise? I have.
A small slightly-backwards-oriented lift of the new outside shoulder does wonders.
It gets the skier onto new edges fast, above the fall line.
Yes, I’ve done it, but not on purpose. It yields to me a surprise ride. Wheee! :)

That shoulder move is well within the tenet of the Holy Grail.
Whew! Then I don’t lose points!
 

markojp

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That shoulder move is well within the tenet of the Holy Grail. Aka the infinity move.

Most technical discussions here center around skis and legs. God forbid if any upper body movement creeps in. Fire and brimstone. Eternal damnation. Yada, yada...

Much of the technical discussions here are aligned with the concept of "skiing to a form".
I like to ski like Marcel too. However I am not in gates much. Most of the time, I am in the weeds.
Personally, I like function over form. Form follows function. Whatever works for me.

Infinity move at the top of the turn.
View attachment 107273

Once we realized active movement of the upper body is not blasphemy. We can talk about what is actually happening without worrying about eternal damnation.

That slightly backward tip of the new outside shoulder allows the skier to actively move the COM down and inside the turn. Closer to the fall line. While the skis take a "faster" and longer track around with reduced weight. The upper body is leading the skis.
It is just a extremely modified variation of the old fashion up un-weighting. A very control throw of the body down the hill.

Variations of that move is very useful all over the hill. Zero radius/speed turns in the steeps, rounder lines in the bumps, etc...

FWIW, I've never excluded upper body movements from coaching discussions when appropriate, often starting with the head*. The focus on feet is because so few skiers and even instructors understand this. Once skiers understand footwork and placement, then I like to look at the core alignment and mobility. Upper and lower body separation? Lots of it starts with where you're looking. (* see above :) )
 

karlo

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FWIW, I've never excluded upper body movements from coaching discussions when appropriate, often starting with the head*. The focus on feet is because so few skiers and even instructors understand this. Once skiers understand footwork and placement, then I like to look at the core alignment and mobility. Upper and lower body separation? Lots of it starts with where you're looking. (* see above :) )
Like, don’t look at the tree
 

KingGrump

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But, whatever. I wrote my post for developing my skiing analysis skills, not for @markojp, who wrote ”KSIA. Let us know when they have a big mountain, freeride, park, skier cross, or world cup win...“

For the record, I have skied with @markojp . One of the nicest guy around and an awesome skier. His opinions are definitely worth some attention.

@karlo , let me be straight with you. Mark is trying to tell you that you are using the wrong references. Yes, you can learn a lot from those videos. But you must also be cognizant of reality.
It's like me watching a F1 race. Yup, of course I can drive like Hamilton. That is until when I am rolling down the road in my mini-van. Sure, I can do the racing line, clip the apex. But there are cars coming in the lane. Sometimes we get carry away by our fantasies.

When you take the wrong fork in the road. You are doomed to be lost for a while. Usually it involves a great deal of back tracking. Mark is trying to provide a bit of friendly guidance to keep you from taking the wrong fork.

Remember the time you were looking for a ski that carves powder. Took me a while to dissuade from that notion. Mark is doing that now.

FWIW, I've never excluded upper body movements from coaching discussions when appropriate, often starting with the head*. The focus on feet is because so few skiers and even instructors understand this. Once skiers understand footwork and placement, then I like to look at the core alignment and mobility. Upper and lower body separation? Lots of it starts with where you're looking. (* see above :) )

Definitely agree with the head thing.
Learned that from the TSV SSD long ago. He called it " independent skull action." Not taught very often due to most are still working on their upper and lower body separation.

BTW, can I have Karlo's beer since he is not claiming it? :ogbiggrin:
 

karlo

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One of the nicest guy around and an awesome skier. His opinions are definitely worth some attention.
I didn’t say he isn’t an awesome skier. I also didn’t say he’s not a nice guy. I’m sure those who wrote SAT questions in the 60’s through 80’s on the topic of National Parks were some of the nicest people. Now, maybe I know one. Maybe I’ll have a chance to have a beer with him and then can say I’ve had beers with one.

let me be straight with you. Mark is trying to tell you that you are using the wrong references
What’s that got to do with analyzing someone’s skiing? Or, is it just that that someone is Korean that makes it somehow not worthy of analysis?

Oh, BTW @markojp, they don’t have tree skiing in Korea either, as they don’t blow snow on anything but the trails. So, sorry, no medals for tree skiing either, in case you’re looking for that
 

markojp

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Yes, I’ve done it, but not on purpose. It yields to me a surprise ride. Wheee! :)


Whew! Then I don’t lose points!

So somehow we've rolled this into white privilege and standardized testing in the US? A big capital hmmmmm .

Karlo, I lived in Japan for many years, had friends on their nat'l demo team, and discussions about the 'what's and 'why'd of home grown skiing and competitive cycling, motivations, metrics, measures of success, etc... I hated when some said they couldn't compete with westerners because of size, etc.. When reminded of their incredible success in moguls, nordic combined, and snowboarding, the discussion changed.


Geography? The greatest WC alpine skiers of both genders, Stenmark and Vonn, learned their fundamentals on small hills. The US was represented in slopestyle by a young man from Indiana. Korean American mogul skier and snowboarder at world class medal winning levels? Yep. So by your reasoning, how did Eddie Merckx win 5 TdF's and 5 Giro's having grown up in Belgium? It's simple. Follow the money.

The alpine ski payday in Korea and even in Japan is still tech comps. And yes, I think Japan has oodles of great potential WC alpine ski talent, but their funding for racers makes development very difficult. I'm sure Korea is in a similar boat. And yes, before you're tempted to accuse me of lumping Japan and Korea together, rest assured that I know my east Asian history very well.

I'll leave it at this. There are NO macro physical/physiological/national economic reason including local topography that hold Korea back from success in any alpine disciplines other than how skiers are compensated. IMHO, when tech becomes the pinnacle a primary national focus of skiing, it might look cool, but it holds back achievement in all other ski disciplines. We may disagree, but assigning racism/privilege isn't germane to the discussion.
 
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markojp

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markojp

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I didn’t say he isn’t an awesome skier. I also didn’t say he’s not a nice guy. I’m sure those who wrote SAT questions in the 60’s through 80’s on the topic of National Parks were some of the nicest people. Now, maybe I know one. Maybe I’ll have a chance to have a beer with him and then can say I’ve had beers with one.


What’s that got to do with analyzing someone’s skiing? Or, is it just that that someone is Korean that makes it somehow not worthy of analysis?

Oh, BTW @markojp, they don’t have tree skiing in Korea either, as they don’t blow snow on anything but the trails. So, sorry, no medals for tree skiing either, in case you’re looking for that

No reason other than nat'l focus they can't train very high quality SL. Trees? Last I looked, there aren't any significant financial rewards for tree skiing.... thankfully. Some things just don't need it.
 

geepers

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KSIA. Let us know when they have a big mountain, freeride, park, skier cross, or world cup win... ok, I'll settle for a top 10 in any of the above. Athletic? Yes. Interesting? In it's own narrow way. Efficient? Their function follows form. I'd rather look toward other examples as models where form follows function. Demo tech skiing as a national end doesn't seem to translate into any other international skiing metrics seems to illustrate a shortcoming.

Hope we don't take metal in the closet too far...

Australia has a pretty lean shelf in Alpine... Which presumably means we'd have to discount Lorenz and McGlashan... Does a Zali Steggal Bronze get them over the line. (We named a ski run at Perisher after her. And now we've voted her into the Federal Govt - does that help?) ;)

Are we sure we want to rule out Lorenz/McGlashan/Gellie/JB/JFB/etc bump skiing? 'Cause sure as sh!t it's never going to win WC or Olympic Moguls. :(

Not sure what to do with the strange case of Steven Bradbury...Olympic Gold.... by default (or clever tactics, take your pick...) Do I get my PSIA L3 pin if the all the others fall down and I'm the last candidate standing? :crossfingers:

Moving on to New Zealand...Alice Robinson's starting to accumulate some serious metal. Does this mean we should now ski with ipsilateral moves? :cool:

An interesting MA exercise would be to compare and contrast one of the KSIA skiers to Ted L... Snow ski interaction first, then work up the chain.

Yes, that would be interesting...
 

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