To be more specific, try it yourself. I happen to be at a picnic bench. Place one foot on the bench, one on the ground. I angulated and tipped on edge. To get the knees pointed in the same direction, it hurts my knee, the bent knee
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CSIA Interski Technical Comparison
- Thread starter PeteW
- Start date
I can do it without any pain. In the house.
People are different. Generalizing to everyone from self is iffy.
I do not get angles like that on snow.
People are different. Generalizing to everyone from self is iffy.
I do not get angles like that on snow.
Timing is everything. On the way to the apex you want your skis separating and after the apex they come together. Having your boot dig a second trench alongside the ski's trench is merely an annoyance when the snow isn't hard; when the snow is hard or when the surface is ice, then it (having your boot try to dig an extra trench) becomes much more annoying as you boot out. Trust me; I know.
Don't think it's anything to do with boot out. Don't think it's a mistake given the caliber of the skiers' exhibiting it.
Red and green - Kyle Armstrong, CSIA Interski 2015
Guy in yellow and black was Paul Lorenz - see just below.
Some other skiers:
Richard Berger, Reilly MacGlashan, Paul Lorenz
JB..
He's the top image on his youtube channel.
And JB in action
JFB
CSIA's Warren Jobbit, coach of the Canadian Interski Team.
Ligety and Hirscher
Razie
HH.
I'm hard pressed to find good skiing vid where people aren't doing it. JB's short turns? But there I suspect it's due to his rather wide short turn stance so it's not as apparent.
This is new info for me. Have to see how it works on snow..... Then we get headlines like this one today...
Fears of a second coronavirus lockdown in NSW
I know who has been watching Tom Gellie's stuff...
What I currently do (but shouldn't) is relax separation and angulation too soon, too slow to flex old outside leg so it becomes a block and then begin angulating too early trying to 'balance on the new outside leg' when I should still be allowing myself to incline further.
What I'm going to be working on:
1. Delay angulating and then do it more progressively through the later stage of the turn
2. More counter-torque with the upper inside leg
3. Hold those into transition
4. Flex the outside leg sooner
5. Have toppling target
6. Back to step 1.
Been stuck at a certain performance level for about a season an 1/2 so we'll see how this works out.
I knew Warren wasn't around the CSIA anymore, but didn't realize what he was up too. John Gilles is doing something similar out of QC.
Razie - Moonstone?
Razie - Moonstone?
We are talking about the inside knee moving over towards the outside of the turn, right?
...causing a slight A-frame in the lower legs
...which causes a slight difference in ski edge angle between inside and outside skis
...right? Just checking.
I definitely don't think those skiers are making a mistake when they do this. I didn't suggest that.
And not all those skiers you selected are doing it.
Why did you select some skiers who are not getting this A-frame?
Why don't you think they get an A-frame because they are avoiding boot out?
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Sorry Karlo, I can't view that clip - say no longer available. I did find another clip simialr name, may be the same topic? Really steep terrain, lotta jump turns, mountaineering on skis... But not a good view of legs.
It's not the knee so much as the thigh. What I'm seeing is the thighs working in tension against each other.
It's not squeezing them together. It's countering the inside thigh and pelvis (and basically the rest of the body) against the outside leg. Stand up and imagine doing a javelin turn. The intent is to turn the outside ski under the raised inside ski, not rotate the top ski over the other. On snow that means we have to be active in allowing the outside leg to rotate under the rest of the body. Pretend to be doing that on the snow, outside leg a little flexed and tension through the core keeping the rest of the body 'stable and separated'. Thighs probably won't be touching but they will be in that tension against each other.
All those clips show skiers doing that - although I picked and cued them for a head on view with wider turns.
Boot out? The skiers are showing various performance levels and some of them safely away from any boot out issues.
Search FourGirlsAndAMatterhorn, posted by Giulia. At 2:50, the direction of knee and thigh are pretty clear
I believe the intent of a javelin turn is to work on pelvic stability. What happens with the femur and knees are just natural outcomes.
Think pelvic alignment (and inside knee can be used to help), then you're cooking with gas.
Stable with respect to what? Also if the thigh and knee are not involved then we miss out on building that useful tension in those large muscle groups.
Think pelvic alignment (and inside knee can be used to help), then you're cooking with gas.
Aligned to what? While I agree it's not very specific in terms of how to perform the drill.
I've spent at least the past two seasons thinking the key to javelin drills was staying balanced (largely in fore aft) which I achieved mostly by some extra flexing at the waist to keep the shoulders from over-rotating and angulating with the spine. In terms of the skis it gets the job done - if the shoulders and inside ski are separated probably the hips will be as well - but it's awkward and it doesn't translate well into normal skiing.
Apparently a better way is considering countering at the pelvis with the pivot point being the outside hip joint. And for good measure work the upper outer leg and maybe even the lower leg if that assists. Now that makes sense in terms of stability and alignment. Stable and aligned relative to the outside leg which is our main base of support. May not be news to plenty of others but it sure is for me.
Honestly and respectfully, I just don't have the time to answer.
alignment to fall line
In all the ski tip javelin drills I could find on youtube the only one mentioning keeping hips square to the fall line was Patrick Deneen, ex-WC Moguls champion. Probably useful if heading straight down the bumps in that style. Not so sure otherwise.
That vid was filmed in Australia - see the ghost gums at 0:15. We don't have an issue with tree wells however the tree trunks and major branches grow at random angles. They are very solid compared to human heads.
Try them with pelvis aligned to fall line and not aligned to fall line.
Align the pelvis to the direction of centripetal force.
Huh? I think that’s correct. at the top of the turn, but way off at and after fall line. By “align “, I assume we are talking about “face”, “face the pelvis”