Best edge tuning tool(s) (OR: help fix my tuning process)

[DavidSkis]

Hi all,

I suck at tuning. I used to think I was good, as my tunes came out better than the job from the local shop. But then I got my skis tuned at Sports Alpin at the bottom of Mont-Sainte-Anne; you could shave with these skis. They used the Wintersteiger machine on them at 3 side, 0.75 base (they wouldn't/couldn't do 0.5 for some reason).

Is there a tuning tool that beats the regular hand tuning process? Or does my process suck?

Here's how I tune:

• Touch up the bases only if necessary with a coarse diamond stone; if no nicks, leave them alone
• Using a 3 degree edge guide...
  
  • Run a coarse stone along the side edge to take off any case hardened spots
  • Use a file on the side edge until I feel I've taken off some metal (sometimes use the magic marker trick, but I feel like this just gets magic marker into the file)
  • Lap diamond stones a few times in each direction along the length of the side edge, going from coarse (225), medium (400), to fine (600)
  • Lap an arkansas stone a few times along the side edge (I think this hardens the edge but I'm not sure I believe it)
• Run a stone along the flat base again to take off the burr
• Wax using that wax-absorbent paper

I am pretty confident that if I tune these skis now by hand, they will be worse than when the shop did them 4 ski days ago. Appreciate your help, guys.

 

[NE1]

The new machines can do an excellent job in the hands of a competent and caring operator, at least as good as all but the best techs.

Your process sounds ok, but I would use only as coarse a stone on the base edge as the ding you are working requires, not just go to the coarse one automatically...do no harm, and all that.

What kind of edge guide do you use, and how many miles on your stones?

 

[jack97]

Got tired of manually sharpening, so I got this. Comes with and without the dremel. Base edge I still do manually tune.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Hi all,

I suck at tuning. I used to think I was good, as my tunes came out better than the job from the local shop. But then I got my skis tuned at Sports Alpin at the bottom of Mont-Sainte-Anne; you could shave with these skis. They used the Wintersteiger machine on them at 3 side, 0.75 base (they wouldn't/couldn't do 0.5 for some reason).

Is there a tuning tool that beats the regular hand tuning process? Or does my process suck?

Here's how I tune:

• Touch up the bases only if necessary with a coarse diamond stone; if no nicks, leave them alone
• Using a 3 degree edge guide...
  
  • Run a coarse stone along the side edge to take off any case hardened spots
  • Use a file on the side edge until I feel I've taken off some metal (sometimes use the magic marker trick, but I feel like this just gets magic marker into the file)
  • Lap diamond stones a few times in each direction along the length of the side edge, going from coarse (225), medium (400), to fine (600)
  • Lap an arkansas stone a few times along the side edge (I think this hardens the edge but I'm not sure I believe it)
• Run a stone along the flat base again to take off the burr
• Wax using that wax-absorbent paper

I am pretty confident that if I tune these skis now by hand, they will be worse than when the shop did them 4 ski days ago. Appreciate your help, guys.

Just a guess but maybe the shop took off more metal than you usually would, which might be both good and bad. Maybe file more? Also not much beats a fresh base and edge tune which would be tough to replicate at home.

 

[James]

Lap an arkansas stone a few times along the side edge (I think this hardens the edge but I'm not sure I believe it)

In terms of what hardening usually means in metal, this is complete nonsense. You're simply polishing the edge, not applying heat. But no less than Willie Witz the former wcup tuner used to mention this in his videos. Let's give him the benefit and say what he really means is that the smoother edge seems harder.

Lapping with arkansas stone is usually done on the base edge to remove any burr from filing. That hanging burr can make the ski awfull on hard snow, feeling railed or won't release.

You didn't mention sidewall planing. That is a big source of interference with the file.
With a good light source usually you can see the metal removed, but I wouldn't worry about magic market on a file. Alcohol takes it off if that's a concern.

 

[Corgski]

In terms of what hardening usually means in metal, this is complete nonsense. You're simply polishing the edge, not applying heat. But no less than Willie Witz the former wcup tuner used to mention this in his videos. Let's give him the benefit and say what he really means is that the smoother edge seems harder.

I assume it is a contact area issue. With a rough surface you are relying more on the high points of that surface to resist deformation from contact. A smoother surface distributes those forces over a larger area.

 

[flbufl]

You should consider the Swix EVO Pro Edger

Hi all,

I suck at tuning. I used to think I was good, as my tunes came out better than the job from the local shop. But then I got my skis tuned at Sports Alpin at the bottom of Mont-Sainte-Anne; you could shave with these skis. They used the Wintersteiger machine on them at 3 side, 0.75 base (they wouldn't/couldn't do 0.5 for some reason).

Is there a tuning tool that beats the regular hand tuning process? Or does my process suck?

Here's how I tune:

• Touch up the bases only if necessary with a coarse diamond stone; if no nicks, leave them alone
• Using a 3 degree edge guide...
  
  • Run a coarse stone along the side edge to take off any case hardened spots
  • Use a file on the side edge until I feel I've taken off some metal (sometimes use the magic marker trick, but I feel like this just gets magic marker into the file)
  • Lap diamond stones a few times in each direction along the length of the side edge, going from coarse (225), medium (400), to fine (600)
  • Lap an arkansas stone a few times along the side edge (I think this hardens the edge but I'm not sure I believe it)
• Run a stone along the flat base again to take off the burr
• Wax using that wax-absorbent paper

I am pretty confident that if I tune these skis now by hand, they will be worse than when the shop did them 4 ski days ago. Appreciate your help, guys.

 

[nemesis256]

Got tired of manually sharpening, so I got this. Comes with and without the dremel. Base edge I still do manually tune.

Didn't know about this one, and it's more reasonably priced than others. I don't quite understand the alignment thing he talks about starting at 2 minutes. Is it tricky to do?

I assume you remove edge damage with a coarse diamond stone before using it. Do you also polish with diamond stones afterwards?

 

[DavidSkis]

Thanks all

In response to some of the questions:

Your process sounds ok, but I would use only as coarse a stone on the base edge as the ding you are working requires, not just go to the coarse one automatically...do no harm, and all that.

What kind of edge guide do you use, and how many miles on your stones?

Thank you, I only touch dings, not the entire base edge.

My edge guide is an aluminum one by "Ski Man" (who the @#$% is that?!). I'm a little concerned that it's not totally flat though. I clamp one side of the file, but then depending on where I press the other side of the file against the guide, the angle seems to change (e.g. if I don't hold it down at all, there's a gap at one end of the file) Is this normal or abnormal?

I try to only use still-good stones.

Just a guess but maybe the shop took off more metal than you usually would, which might be both good and bad. Maybe file more? Also not much beats a fresh base and edge tune which would be tough to replicate at home.

Thank you. Should I use a bastard file?

Presently I only use a ... regular file (?? it says "cut 2" on it). I also have a tool called a base edge file, which I've never used, as the teeth are so deep that they look like they would take most of the edge off the ski.

In terms of what hardening usually means in metal, this is complete nonsense. You're simply polishing the edge, not applying heat. But no less than Willie Witz the former wcup tuner used to mention this in his videos. Let's give him the benefit and say what he really means is that the smoother edge seems harder.

Lapping with arkansas stone is usually done on the base edge to remove any burr from filing. That hanging burr can make the ski awfull on hard snow, feeling railed or won't release.

You didn't mention sidewall planing. That is a big source of interference with the file.

Thank you James.

Yes to sidewall planing but only if I hear/feel grinding from the sidewall when filing.

Regarding arkansas stone - can I just run it flat against the base at the end then?

Is there any meaningful difference by running the stone along the side? when I run it along the side, I use a guide, but the stone is really wide and doesn't seem to clamp well (ie it doesn't really look flush against the guide due to clamp pressure). Is the guide necessary for this step?

 

[James]

Regarding arkansas stone - can I just run it flat against the base at the end then?

Yes, just hold it flat against the base. It will pick up wax from thebase and require cleaning after awhile. For ceramic stones I use Comet and a tooth brush or scotch brite like on a sponge. Not sure about the natural stone cleaning.

The side edge yes, better to use a guide. You really don't need to go to Arkansas level at all though. 400 diamond stone, stone, wet/dry paper is
fine. Even 220.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Thank you. Should I use a bastard file?

Presently I only use a ... regular file (?? it says "cut 2" on it). I also have a tool called a base edge file, which I've never used, as the teeth are so deep that they look like they would take most of the edge off the ski.

I still only use a #2. I'll let the experts weigh in on that, though like you I find that my tuning never looks as pro as from a shop. but then again neither does my auto repair or carpentry, but my painting is flawless. However I find that my daughter's skis which don't get too beat up and might have softer metal come out near shop quality every time

 

[jack97]

Didn't know about this one, and it's more reasonably priced than others. I don't quite understand the alignment thing he talks about starting at 2 minutes. Is it tricky to do?

I assume you remove edge damage with a coarse diamond stone before using it. Do you also polish with diamond stones afterwards?

Using the pic below as reference for the alignment, you place the blue ceramic grinding stone on the side edge. The two black knobs are adjusted to get that close to being level to the edge. Always making sure the grinding stone is the only thing that touches the edge. The black knobs act like outriggers for a boat, making sure the grinding stone stays close to leve on the edge as you move it along the length of the edge.

I thought it was the best option period in terms of value. I had plenty of electric motors burn out on me. So if I got an embedded motor in other electric tuners, I would have to buy another unit if the motor breaks. The other is the grinding stone itself, i could find generic replacements units anywhere online otherwise I would have to buy specific grinding stones that fits into the tuner, most likely at a high markup.


Like any new tool, you need to run it a few times to get the hang of it. As for prep work, If the base and edge takes on too much damage, it would best to use a course file or stone to remove any large dents. The metal disc and lip on top of the label shown in the pic is the guide and runs under the base of the ski. It needs to run on a flat base to get the desire side angle, so I use a base scraper to make sure it is flat. Don't run this near any flammable liquids or fumes, the tool will cause sparks, I practice using this tool on my rock skis and sparks were flying all over the place

 

[razie]

About Arkansas stones and hardening:

As Justin Harvey (Alpine Coordinator for Swix USA tech/race clinics and US Ski Team needs) observes, “A fine ceramic or Arkansas stone ‘hones’ edges instead of ‘sanding’ them. When you work with a diamond stone, you are somewhat ‘softening’ the edge surface, so finish with a hard stone to smoothly hone it to final race-ready condition.” All top techs unanimously agree. Once this final step is done, you’re ready to go ride.​

http://www.tognar.com/blog/edge-polishing/

That jives with my research at the time. There's a difference between honing and sanding/filing and a diamond stone is in the sanding category. My understanding is that the honing process compacts the metal somewhat, hardening the diamond-softened side.

Your process sounds allright. I think you get the skis decently sharp. Went through the same process some years back and thought I'm doing great until I had one ski done with a machine and like you, I was WTF !!!

Turns out you can get close to that with hand tunes. It's a matter of how perfect everything is (base bevel, flat base, edge bevel) and how well you do it. If you go up to a 400/600, you should match that by feel.

It helps to start with a ski that was already done on a machine, so closer to perfect (base bevel, flat base etc) and just maintain it.

If you have a new ski that you want to get to that level, it takes quite a bit more filing than people are maybe willing to do to a new ski, to get the edge perfectly beveled (the marker bit is optional - you can eyeball how shiny the edge is).

Nowadays, I get all the skis base ground and reset at the beginning of the season and just maintain them during the season.

I use this guy, in TO - does everything himself and is careful: http://skisharpening.com/

Have a horror story, where Skiis and Biikes were incompetent and made me drive 2 hours just to tell me it's double the price they quoted on the phone and wanted to charge me 90$ for a flat base grind, went to Corbetts, which was 30$ but didn't remove enough base material (even after I inssissted that I want the base bevel changed from 1 to 0.5, so they should have known), then went to this guy and he did everything right, right in front of me, for cheaper than Corbetts, so now I have a flat ski at 0.5 base and sharp. He'll be getting 20-something pairs from me alone next season, which used to go to Corbetts!

 

[jzmtl]

Arkansas stone is actually quite soft, so maybe you can get some work hardening of the edge because stone isn't hard enough to cut but rather just displace some of the surface metal.

I've been using edgetune for the last two seasons and it's decent for recreational skier, don't bother if you do any timed events though, the surface finish isn't that good. The 3 degree setting on the bracket is actually a tiny bit over 3, so the first time using it is a pain in the butt since you essentially have to redo the edge bevel. I've also added magnets to capture metal dust and changed the process to wet grinding since it produces a lot of heat and heat dissipation on that tiny stone is crap. It's more of a maintainer than a sharpener though, you can remove metal with a 100 grit diamond stone much quicker.

For base edge deburr I've switched to a base edge guide with a fine ceramic stone, works better than stone flat on base IMO.

 

[jack97]

I've been using edgetune for the last two seasons and it's decent for recreational skier, don't bother if you do any timed events though, the surface finish isn't that good. The 3 degree setting on the bracket is actually a tiny bit over 3, so the first time using it is a pain in the butt since you essentially have to redo the edge bevel. I've also added magnets to capture metal dust and changed the process to wet grinding since it produces a lot of heat and heat dissipation on that tiny stone is crap. It's more of a maintainer than a sharpener though, you can remove metal with a 100 grit diamond stone much quicker.

My kit came with a grinding compound that mixes with water for a smoother and polished finished. If that doesn't isn't good enough then you can find finer grit stones other than what was supplied. The kit also comes with an Al OX medium grit stone, does OK with my rock skis with lots of dings and dents but in might have been a washed for instead using a course file.


First season trying them and been skiing lot of boiler plate lately due to the NE thaw, I'm completely satisfied.

 

[Wilhelmson]

One thing I have found to be helpful is to use an Austin Power voice to ask your second cut file "Who does number two work for?"

 

[Deadslow]

Hello OP (and others),

I also tired of hand tuning. Here's my example of side edge hand tuning vs machine (snowglide AF-C).

Scenario - old SL rock skis. Hand tuned edge - file and moonflex (200 grit) done years ago. Before this picture was taken the sidewall was peeled back. The blue sharpie markings are approx 1.0 cm apart.

After picture - 3 passes with medium stone.

I took these pictures the first time I used the snowglide (jan 2018). It's pretty idiot proof (whew).

As others have noted, there are many benefits to using an edging machine. I really enjoy the insane edge grip.

Cheers!

 

[jzmtl]

My kit came with a grinding compound that mixes with water for a smoother and polished finished. If that doesn't isn't good enough then you can find finer grit stones other than what was supplied. The kit also comes with an Al OX medium grit stone, does OK with my rock skis with lots of dings and dents but in might have been a washed for instead using a course file.


First season trying them and been skiing lot of boiler plate lately due to the NE thaw, I'm completely satisfied.

It's sharp enough for boiler plate that's for sure, but the surface finish isn't as perfectly smooth as you would get from a machine grind or one of the (much) more expensive options. Dremel tools aren't precision tools, too much shaft runout, no way around that.

 

[DavidSkis]

Wow, @Deadslow , those look like great results.

Unfortunately I find it hard to justify $2K on a tuning tool (that's like 40 shop tunes at my favourite shop! They even offer tuning season passes for $200...). Here's what it looks like different tools cost; let me know if I'm way off base on any of them:

Snowglide - $1700ish
Razor Tune - $520ish
Edge Tune Pro 2 - $140 + dremel
Swix evo pro - $400ish

How would you rate each of them for tune quality, speed, safety (e.g. inhaling dust, risk of cutting off fingers), ease of use? Best point of reference is hand tune vs top end shop tune.

My trainer told me to hand tune my new skis because there's not a ton of edge on them (They are race skis). How much edge does each of the above options remove when compared to hand tuning and shop machine tuning?

Thanks all

 

[jack97]

Snowglide - $1700ish
Razor Tune - $520ish
Edge Tune Pro 2 - $140 + dremel
Swix evo pro - $400ish

It's no wonder that skiing and riding has become an activity for the rich. I can not speak to the quality of the tune wrt to a high tune shop nor quality of the surface finish. These metrics are really for racers who are finicky about the edges for timed events.

I care about edge grip on boiler plate in the flats and in the bumps. I beat up my skis in the glades and exposed surfaces to the point I wanted something fast to sharpen them instead of the manual approach. That said, the edgetune comes with two types of grinding stone, the blue finer grit and the Al Ox medium grit. The later can grind off metal to fix dents (I became comfortable in using this guide to take off metal). While the former is use for the final pass(es) for sharpness, its fine to the point it takes very little metal off. The guide has three side angle setting, 1,2 & 3 deg. IRCC, other machines has .5 deg resolution and may go higher. As for the visual of the finish, look at the end of the vid I posted, you can see the finish it leaves. I see very little striations, if you want less, use a finer grit. You need a steady hand to used the guide and can wobble off if you don't press the guide to the base ski.

Lastly, the stability in shaft rotation of any of these machines over time could be in question. My concern was, is the high cost of the other options due a better design or the lack of economy of scale.