I received a message from a member about how to get started with tuning skis. She is waxing skis but wants to go the next step in making her skis keep their 'from the shop' tune in shape.
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Basic ski maintenance: using a diamond stone to remove burrs
- Thread starter Doug Briggs
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Thread Starter
TS
Using a diamond stone to remove burrs
I got these B4 Squads a little while ago and put a benchmark tune on them at work. We use a Wintersteiger belt and stone grinders and a sweet Trim Jet ceramic edger. I'll talk about machines later if people are interested. You will see the results of the ceramic edger in the photos. The tiny parallel lines at a consistent angle to the edge are from the edger. They are visible but virtually smooth. These are the same marks you'll see on new skis. The Trim Jet is the same type of machine that ski manufacturers use to prep new skis.
I took the Squads out last Monday at Keystone and inflicted a little damage. You can see that I skidded sideways over a rock (probably) and scratched the base edge and left some burrs on the side edge.
On the base edge I created 'innies': gouges in the metal that can only be completely removed by either changing the base bevel or severe grinding and re-beveling. The side edge has the remnants of the innies in the form of burrs or 'outies'. The innies aren't a big deal although they are slightly slower than a smooth edge. The outies, on the otherhand cause significant drag and are quite noticeable while skiing on firm snow. They are a hazard to your hands and clothing as well.
The first step is is work out the innies a bit. For the sake of illustration, I've used a Sharpie to mark up the edge. When you are beginning your tuning efforts, using a marker on the edges can help you see how your stone is contacting the edge.
I'm using a fairly course stone in this demonstration: a black DMT stone is what they call a 300 mesh. It will remove material quickly and makes the work go faster. On skis that really matter, you may want to use finer stones such as a red DMT. You could also start with black and redo with red. The coarser stone will leave marks of its own but as they are less deep than the innies and run in the direction of travel of the ski, the edges will be improved. Finer and finer will eventually give you a sweet, shiny polished edge.
Hold the stone so that one end is just outboard of the ski and the other end is raised in a manner that the contact of the stone is solely on the edge and mimics the base edge bevel angle. You can sight along the base edge and look for daylight (angle not matched) or no daylight (angled matched). A bright light beyond the stone can help you.
Move the stone back and forth using your inboard hand as a guide controlling the stone angle. You can go both ways because the stone is unidirectional. Move along the longitudinal axis. Your outboard hand may help the stone to track along the ski as well, but beware the outies and don't get cut. Using the marker will help you find out if you are matching the edge bevel or not. In the following photo you'll see that I used a little too more base bevel angle than the original base edge bevel (1 degree). If you have really deep innies and want them gone, this is the only way to get them out without resorting to a base grind and re-setting the base edge bevel. In this example I am slightly changing the base edge bevel. This is to favor a smooth base edge vs maintaining the base edge bevel. If these were race skis or carvers, I might leave more innie in favor or retaining the base edge bevel. As these are primarily soft snow skis, I've gone for smoother. It is also useful for you to see what happens if you don't match the base edge bevel. Most skis that are tuned by amateurs end up with an increasing base edge bevel. That is why it is recommended not to touch your base edges and leave it to a shop. With a very fine stone you can touch up your base edges as I demonstrate here without much risk of changing the bevel, but stone your base edges sparingly.
Note that the outboard part of the edge is shiny; the marker has been removed there. The next photo shows a uniform base edge polish.
Now I'll work on the side edge. Again marking the edge helps see what you are doing. Eventually you'll be able to feel and see the proper bevel angle without marking the edges.
Here is how to hold the stone on the edge.
Don't press hard, but rather let gentle pressure allow the stone to settle on the edge. Keep your thumb centered on the stone and centered over the edge. You'll note that the sidewalls were planed back (it has a greater bevel than the edge so it recedes from the edge) during the shop tune so the stone is just on the metal of the edge. My index finger is helping guide the stone.
As with the base edge bevel, move the stone forward and back along the edge. As the outies are fairly severe, the stone will drag a bit and sound rough. As you finish the stoning of the edge, the roughness will disappear along with the outies.
Before:
After:
Performing the same actions with a finer stone, then a fine gummi will smooth the edge even more. For performance carving/race skis, finish in the same fashion with a ceramic stone for the ultimate in polish. If you don't progress to finer stones, you may want to take a light pass along the base edge after doing the side edge. Every time you use an abrasive on the edge you may leave a bit of burr on the opposing side of the edge. This is known as the 'hanging burr' and is a natural result of working the metal. The finer your stones the smaller the burr. Ceramic is as fine as it gets and leaves virtually no burr.
This kind of damage can easily be addressed on the hill with a stone you carry with you. Once you are comfortable that you can match the edge bevel, just knock the outies off with a quick few passes of the stone. Focus on the side edge as that is where most outies occur.
I used still shots because the clarity is better. If a video would help you understand the motions involved, I'll set up for that.
I got these B4 Squads a little while ago and put a benchmark tune on them at work. We use a Wintersteiger belt and stone grinders and a sweet Trim Jet ceramic edger. I'll talk about machines later if people are interested. You will see the results of the ceramic edger in the photos. The tiny parallel lines at a consistent angle to the edge are from the edger. They are visible but virtually smooth. These are the same marks you'll see on new skis. The Trim Jet is the same type of machine that ski manufacturers use to prep new skis.
I took the Squads out last Monday at Keystone and inflicted a little damage. You can see that I skidded sideways over a rock (probably) and scratched the base edge and left some burrs on the side edge.
On the base edge I created 'innies': gouges in the metal that can only be completely removed by either changing the base bevel or severe grinding and re-beveling. The side edge has the remnants of the innies in the form of burrs or 'outies'. The innies aren't a big deal although they are slightly slower than a smooth edge. The outies, on the otherhand cause significant drag and are quite noticeable while skiing on firm snow. They are a hazard to your hands and clothing as well.
The first step is is work out the innies a bit. For the sake of illustration, I've used a Sharpie to mark up the edge. When you are beginning your tuning efforts, using a marker on the edges can help you see how your stone is contacting the edge.
I'm using a fairly course stone in this demonstration: a black DMT stone is what they call a 300 mesh. It will remove material quickly and makes the work go faster. On skis that really matter, you may want to use finer stones such as a red DMT. You could also start with black and redo with red. The coarser stone will leave marks of its own but as they are less deep than the innies and run in the direction of travel of the ski, the edges will be improved. Finer and finer will eventually give you a sweet, shiny polished edge.
Hold the stone so that one end is just outboard of the ski and the other end is raised in a manner that the contact of the stone is solely on the edge and mimics the base edge bevel angle. You can sight along the base edge and look for daylight (angle not matched) or no daylight (angled matched). A bright light beyond the stone can help you.
Move the stone back and forth using your inboard hand as a guide controlling the stone angle. You can go both ways because the stone is unidirectional. Move along the longitudinal axis. Your outboard hand may help the stone to track along the ski as well, but beware the outies and don't get cut. Using the marker will help you find out if you are matching the edge bevel or not. In the following photo you'll see that I used a little too more base bevel angle than the original base edge bevel (1 degree). If you have really deep innies and want them gone, this is the only way to get them out without resorting to a base grind and re-setting the base edge bevel. In this example I am slightly changing the base edge bevel. This is to favor a smooth base edge vs maintaining the base edge bevel. If these were race skis or carvers, I might leave more innie in favor or retaining the base edge bevel. As these are primarily soft snow skis, I've gone for smoother. It is also useful for you to see what happens if you don't match the base edge bevel. Most skis that are tuned by amateurs end up with an increasing base edge bevel. That is why it is recommended not to touch your base edges and leave it to a shop. With a very fine stone you can touch up your base edges as I demonstrate here without much risk of changing the bevel, but stone your base edges sparingly.
Note that the outboard part of the edge is shiny; the marker has been removed there. The next photo shows a uniform base edge polish.
Now I'll work on the side edge. Again marking the edge helps see what you are doing. Eventually you'll be able to feel and see the proper bevel angle without marking the edges.
Here is how to hold the stone on the edge.
Don't press hard, but rather let gentle pressure allow the stone to settle on the edge. Keep your thumb centered on the stone and centered over the edge. You'll note that the sidewalls were planed back (it has a greater bevel than the edge so it recedes from the edge) during the shop tune so the stone is just on the metal of the edge. My index finger is helping guide the stone.
As with the base edge bevel, move the stone forward and back along the edge. As the outies are fairly severe, the stone will drag a bit and sound rough. As you finish the stoning of the edge, the roughness will disappear along with the outies.
Before:
After:
Performing the same actions with a finer stone, then a fine gummi will smooth the edge even more. For performance carving/race skis, finish in the same fashion with a ceramic stone for the ultimate in polish. If you don't progress to finer stones, you may want to take a light pass along the base edge after doing the side edge. Every time you use an abrasive on the edge you may leave a bit of burr on the opposing side of the edge. This is known as the 'hanging burr' and is a natural result of working the metal. The finer your stones the smaller the burr. Ceramic is as fine as it gets and leaves virtually no burr.
This kind of damage can easily be addressed on the hill with a stone you carry with you. Once you are comfortable that you can match the edge bevel, just knock the outies off with a quick few passes of the stone. Focus on the side edge as that is where most outies occur.
I used still shots because the clarity is better. If a video would help you understand the motions involved, I'll set up for that.
Last edited:
Thanks, Doug. Do you usually touch up the edges one last time with a fine stone after waxing.
Thread Starter
TS
I don't touch the edges with a stone after waxing. They should be good to go before waxing and only need to have the wax removed from the edges with the scraper.
I put my diamond stone into an edge guide. Does anyone else do that?
Thread Starter
TS
Absolutely. This was meant to cover burr removal, not sharpening. The stuff I show above is what I do on the hill or prior to working on a full tune or a maintenance tune. The coarseness of the stone required for burr removal isn't appropriate for regular tuning work for which I too use a guide. It has been my plan to demonstrate that but work has gotten in the way.
This is timely since I bought a diamond and ceramic edge tool last winter but haven't used it until now. I went to a class on how to use it but forgot pretty much everything. I've just been using a light touch on the base then the side edge to smooth things out. Hoping this winter we won't have to deal with so many of these.
A file guide is mandatory to get the edge angle right. They can be expensive or cheap depending upon the quality. Some multi-angle guides are also OK to use, but most suck. I take the FK FKS multi tuner tool (I forgot what it is called) on vacation with 3 stones and it works great. It comes with a metal file, but you really want to use the stones once the edge is set. At home I use aluminum file guides. They are expensive, but never warp or bend and will last a lifetime.
There isn't much to remember once the base angle is set. Side angles just need to be consistent. First, figure out what side angle you want. Most people want the angle recommended by the manufacturer. For one pair of skis it may be 2 degrees, for another pair it could be something else. There is no need to dull the tips or tails of almost all modern skis, so just file away starting from the most coarse stone (wet or dry) necessary for the condition of the edges down to the most fine stone you have. Once you can no longer feel or hear the stone grind away against your edges, move on to a finer stone. The only issues of side filing is: 1) Starting with a flat base; 2) Getting an occasional "lip" (there has to be a better word for it) under the edge from sharpening, which can be taken off rubbing a super-fine stone or Arkansas stone very lightly along the base. Otherwise, don't mess with the base edge once it has been set.
For more details see some of the many YouTube videos people have posted.
I thought I'd bring this thread back to life as I have a couple of questions regarding edge sharpening and tools for that purpose.
I have two dedicated edge tools: a SkiVisions edge tool (which does both base and side at the same time), and a Swix tool that only does the side edge. Both of them are adjustable. I'll usually use the Swix tool to remove burrs with a diamond stone, then use the SkiVisions edge tool for smoothing and polishing. I try to remove as little as possible from the edges. I notice that the SkiVisions tool now has available "green stone" inserts which are supposed to be a bit more aggressive than the standard stones.
Any comments on must-have vs. avoid-at-all-costs replacement stones for either one of these tools? And what's the preferred brand of diamond "files" to use for very minor sharpening? Living out west has its advantages, I only rarely hit things that will nick the edges. Unfortunately, last year at Park City I did just that next to the "cliff" that's above the run as you turn skier's right off the top of the Bonanza chair (if you know where that is)...
I have two dedicated edge tools: a SkiVisions edge tool (which does both base and side at the same time), and a Swix tool that only does the side edge. Both of them are adjustable. I'll usually use the Swix tool to remove burrs with a diamond stone, then use the SkiVisions edge tool for smoothing and polishing. I try to remove as little as possible from the edges. I notice that the SkiVisions tool now has available "green stone" inserts which are supposed to be a bit more aggressive than the standard stones.
Any comments on must-have vs. avoid-at-all-costs replacement stones for either one of these tools? And what's the preferred brand of diamond "files" to use for very minor sharpening? Living out west has its advantages, I only rarely hit things that will nick the edges. Unfortunately, last year at Park City I did just that next to the "cliff" that's above the run as you turn skier's right off the top of the Bonanza chair (if you know where that is)...
These are great tips, so I thought I would bump it.Using a diamond stone to remove burrs
I got these B4 Squads a little while ago and put a benchmark tune on them at work. We use a Wintersteiger belt and stone grinders and a sweet Trim Jet ceramic edger. I'll talk about machines later if people are interested. You will see the results of the ceramic edger in the photos. The tiny parallel lines at a consistent angle to the edge are from the edger. They are visible but virtually smooth. These are the same marks you'll see on new skis. The Trim Jet is the same type of machine that ski manufacturers use to prep new skis.
I took the Squads out last Monday at Keystone and inflicted a little damage. You can see that I skidded sideways over a rock (probably) and scratched the base edge and left some burrs on the side edge.
On the base edge I created 'innies': gouges in the metal that can only be completely removed by either changing the base bevel or severe grinding and re-beveling. The side edge has the remnants of the innies in the form of burrs or 'outies'. The innies aren't a big deal although they are slightly slower than a smooth edge. The outies, on the otherhand cause significant drag and are quite noticeable while skiing on firm snow. They are a hazard to your hands and clothing as well.
The first step is is work out the innies a bit. For the sake of illustration, I've used a Sharpie to mark up the edge. When you are beginning your tuning efforts, using a marker on the edges can help you see how your stone is contacting the edge.
I'm using a fairly course stone in this demonstration: a black DMT stone is what they call a 300 mesh. It will remove material quickly and makes the work go faster. On skis that really matter, you may want to use finer stones such as a red DMT. You could also start with black and redo with red. The coarser stone will leave marks of its own but as they are less deep than the innies and run in the direction of travel of the ski, the edges will be improved. Finer and finer will eventually give you a sweet, shiny polished edge.
Hold the stone so that one end is just outboard of the ski and the other end is raised in a manner that the contact of the stone is solely on the edge and mimics the base edge bevel angle. You can sight along the base edge and look for daylight (angle not matched) or no daylight (angled matched). A bright light beyond the stone can help you.
Move the stone back and forth using your inboard hand as a guide controlling the stone angle. You can go both ways because the stone is unidirectional. Move along the longitudinal axis. Your outboard hand may help the stone to track along the ski as well, but beware the outies and don't get cut. Using the marker will help you find out if you are matching the edge bevel or not. In the following photo you'll see that I used a little too more base bevel angle than the original base edge bevel (1 degree). If you have really deep innies and want them gone, this is the only way to get them out without resorting to a base grind and re-setting the base edge bevel. In this example I am slightly changing the base edge bevel. This is to favor a smooth base edge vs maintaining the base edge bevel. If these were race skis or carvers, I might leave more innie in favor or retaining the base edge bevel. As these are primarily soft snow skis, I've gone for smoother. It is also useful for you to see what happens if you don't match the base edge bevel. Most skis that are tuned by amateurs end up with an increasing base edge bevel. That is why it is recommended not to touch your base edges and leave it to a shop. With a very fine stone you can touch up your base edges as I demonstrate here without much risk of changing the bevel, but stone your base edges sparingly.
Note that the outboard part of the edge is shiny; the marker has been removed there. The next photo shows a uniform base edge polish.
Now I'll work on the side edge. Again marking the edge helps see what you are doing. Eventually you'll be able to feel and see the proper bevel angle without marking the edges.
Here is how to hold the stone on the edge.
Don't press hard, but rather let gentle pressure allow the stone to settle on the edge. Keep your thumb centered on the stone and centered over the edge. You'll note that the sidewalls were planed back (it has a greater bevel than the edge so it recedes from the edge) during the shop tune so the stone is just on the metal of the edge. My index finger is helping guide the stone.
As with the base edge bevel, move the stone forward and back along the edge. As the outies are fairly severe, the stone will drag a bit and sound rough. As you finish the stoning of the edge, the roughness will disappear along with the outies.
Before:
After:
Performing the same actions with a finer stone, then a fine gummi will smooth the edge even more. For performance carving/race skis, finish in the same fashion with a ceramic stone for the ultimate in polish. If you don't progress to finer stones, you may want to take a light pass along the base edge after doing the side edge. Every time you use an abrasive on the edge you may leave a bit of burr on the opposing side of the edge. This is known as the 'hanging burr' and is a natural result of working the metal. The finer your stones the smaller the burr. Ceramic is as fine as it gets and leaves virtually no burr.
This kind of damage can easily be addressed on the hill with a stone you carry with you. Once you are comfortable that you can match the edge bevel, just knock the outies off with a quick few passes of the stone. Focus on the side edge as that is where most outies occur.
I used still shots because the clarity is better. If a video would help you understand the motions involved, I'll set up for that.
Hey Doug, do you use any lube for your diamond stones (i.e. water, 50/50 mix, or SVST Secret Sauce)?
Thread Starter
TS
When I do touch up work like this, I usually skip a lubricant/coolant. When I do full ski tunes, I'll use water with a little dish soap sprayed onto the ski.
I've only ever used water but have only been tuning my own gear for a couple years. What's the advantage of a bit of dish soap? How much dish soap in say a cup of water?
Thanks
Thanks
The deal is to reduce the surface tension of the water. The best thing to use is 50/50 Denatured Alcohol and Water. Soap can work, but it can leave soap on the ski base and that is not good for wax adhesion.
See this for a moment here.
I agree with Jacques and a 50/50 mix in one of those little finger pump spritz bottles works well. I typically do a 50/50 mix with 1-2 tiny drops, literally only 1-2 tiny drops, of soap and give the bottle a good shake before every use. Adding 1 or 2 drops of soap is ok but adding a squirt of soap to your mix is bad, this is definitely one of those times when more is not better. All the soap really does is make it stay on the diamond stone a little better than straight water or 50/50.
Also, and this is a biggie, keep your diamond stones clean, don't let them get all gunked up with edge material from use or worse yet, wax that wasn't scraped off the edges. keeping them clean will not only make them work better but they'll longer, too.
Also, and this is a biggie, keep your diamond stones clean, don't let them get all gunked up with edge material from use or worse yet, wax that wasn't scraped off the edges. keeping them clean will not only make them work better but they'll longer, too.
Thread Starter
TS
I remember hearing about alcohol and water but never get around to mixing it up. I do so little hand work other than deburr touchup on my skis (for which I wouldn't bother with a liquid) that I don't have any solution around these days.
In that case water is your best friend!
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There is no reason NOT to use an file/stone guide anytime you are working on your edges. PARTICULARLY BEGINNERS!
I would also caution to do the absolute minimum on the base edge. The lions share of maintenance is done on the side edge and if you are using a diamond stone, there is no good reason not to just do so just like you should after filing your side edge. And you still must knock off any hanging burr with a surgical or hard stone after any kind of side stoning. This can be done done freehand on the base edge as a true hardstone or surgical stone only polishes and does not cut. My last step is always a hard blue gummi down the edge point at a 45 degree angle with absolutely NO Pressure, to remove any burr.
I would also submit that what has been described above are not burrs at all, but deformation or damage of the steel edge caused by impact. Most burrs on steel are microscopic and cannot be seen without magnification and are normally caused by the sharpening/stoning process.
I would also caution to do the absolute minimum on the base edge. The lions share of maintenance is done on the side edge and if you are using a diamond stone, there is no good reason not to just do so just like you should after filing your side edge. And you still must knock off any hanging burr with a surgical or hard stone after any kind of side stoning. This can be done done freehand on the base edge as a true hardstone or surgical stone only polishes and does not cut. My last step is always a hard blue gummi down the edge point at a 45 degree angle with absolutely NO Pressure, to remove any burr.
I would also submit that what has been described above are not burrs at all, but deformation or damage of the steel edge caused by impact. Most burrs on steel are microscopic and cannot be seen without magnification and are normally caused by the sharpening/stoning process.
Last edited:
Thread Starter
TS
Guides are good to use but tedious to carry while skiing.
Regarding vernacular, I call them burrs for lack of a better, more universally recognized term. I could start calling them boogers as in 'I boogered up my edges on that rock'.
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