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Basic ski maintenance: using a diamond stone to remove burrs

Atomicman

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If I goof up my edges while I am skiing..........Even I just keep skiing for the rest of the day. Ya don't need to fix minor dings on the spot unless they are not minor.

Which reminds me of the saying .......Minor surgery is only on someone else! :)
 
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Doug Briggs

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Usually I'm using a knife to deal with damage to my skis on the hill; cutting off hanging pieces of p-tex. But sometimes, especially when on hard packed, I can feel the need to remove the burrs on the spot. If nothing else, it helps to protect my hands and clothing from potential cuts and tears. Certainly it's not necessary for every ding, but if I notice it while skiing beyond the initial impact, I prefer to tend to it right away. I hate when my ski isn't gliding well.
 

Sibhusky

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There is no reason NOT to use an file/stone guide anytime you are working on your edges. PARTICULARLY BEGINNERS!

I would also caution to do the absolute minimum on the base edge. The lions share of maintenance is done on the side edge and if you are using a diamond stone, there is no good reason not to just do so just like you should after filing your side edge. And you still must knock off any hanging burr with a surgical or hard stone after any kind of side stoning. This can be done done freehand on the base edge as a true hardstone or surgical stone only polishes and does not cut. My last step is always a hard blue gummi down the edge point at a 45 degree angle with absolutely NO Pressure, to remove any burr.


I would also submit that what has been described above are not burrs at all, but deformation or damage of the steel edge caused by impact. Most burrs on steel are microscopic and cannot be seen without magnification and are normally caused by the sharpening/stoning process.
There you are, A-man. Been wondering if you'd show up.
 

Sibhusky

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My daughter bought me this thing one Christmas. Never used it, but it is small. https://m.alibaba.com/guide/shop/sw...nd-snowboard-ta3004xf-model-2012_3958837.html

swix-diamond-disk-tuner-ta3004_5321651.jpg
 

PTskier

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Developing the correct touch with a diamond tool is important. Too light and it doesn't cut. Too heavy and bits of diamond are knocked out and lost.

A FK SKS Edge Trick tool is small enough to take along for the day and hone off any raised burrs pulled up by rocks. I don't worry about the divots, just the raised bits. Those raised bits have been work hardened and are best removed with a stone or diamond. The divots will be taken care of at my next machine tune.
IMG_4475__89105.1482536585.60.79.JPG

Machinists have 5 classes of burrs. Microscopic burrs are class 1. We're probably talking about class 3 burrs that get pushed up by rocks..."Class 3 burrs are well attached burrs that are small in nature, but require significant, mechanical finishing force in order to be removed." https://www.productionmachining.com/articles/a-standard-approach-to-classifying-burrs

I bought a Ski Visions Ski Sharp Edge Tuning Tool. Too much for too little. It's the most ineffective tool in my tuning kit. It'll take off raised parts with its stones, but otherwise it doesn't accomplish much. Among the tuning tools, I like the FK products better.

I ignore factory edge angles. I set the edge angles to suit my snow conditions and my skiing technique.

Ski edges need to be sharp from the snow contact point of the shovel to the contact point of the tail. The edges of the up-turned shovel need to be dull. When skiing in a frozen rut it's tough enough without a sharp edge grabbing the side of the rut and pulling the ski around.
 
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Doug Briggs

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Ah, you saved me the effort of taking a picture of mine (edge trick ^). It gets fair amount of use. I like that mine uses a carborundum stone, not diamond. It takes boogers :beercheer:off quickly. :) While the stone eventually wears out, it doesn't matter if it gets a nick or two, either. It still gets the job done.
 

Atomicman

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Developing the correct touch with a diamond tool is important. Too light and it doesn't cut. Too heavy and bits of diamond are knocked out and lost.

A FK SKS Edge Trick tool is small enough to take along for the day and hone off any raised burrs pulled up by rocks. I don't worry about the divots, just the raised bits. Those raised bits have been work hardened and are best removed with a stone or diamond. The divots will be taken care of at my next machine tune.
IMG_4475__89105.1482536585.60.79.JPG

Machinists have 5 classes of burrs. Microscopic burrs are class 1. We're probably talking about class 3 burrs that get pushed up by rocks..."Class 3 burrs are well attached burrs that are small in nature, but require significant, mechanical finishing force in order to be removed." https://www.productionmachining.com/articles/a-standard-approach-to-classifying-burrs

I bought a Ski Visions Ski Sharp Edge Tuning Tool. Too much for too little. It's the most ineffective tool in my tuning kit. It'll take off raised parts with its stones, but otherwise it doesn't accomplish much. Among the tuning tools, I like the FK products better.

I ignore factory edge angles. I set the edge angles to suit my snow conditions and my skiing technique.

Ski edges need to be sharp from the snow contact point of the shovel to the contact point of the tail. The edges of the up-turned shovel need to be dull. When skiing in a frozen rut it's tough enough without a sharp edge grabbing the side of the rut and pulling the ski around.
I read this article and discounted the very part you are mentioning (Class 3 Burrs) because it is in reference to machine finishing in the manufacturing process not repairing impact damage.



"Burrs are nothing more than raised edges and rough spots on metal parts. Often, they show up as strips of metal next to a machined surface after machining operations, including milling, grinding, turning and drilling, and they happen all the time."
 
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Doug Briggs

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I've only ever used water but have only been tuning my own gear for a couple years. What's the advantage of a bit of dish soap? How much dish soap in say a cup of water?
Thanks

Just a few drops in a 8oz of water is sufficient. I never had a problem with the soap, my DHs are some of the fastest out there, but I'll be going with water and alcohol if I remember to change the solution next time.
 

Jacques

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Just a few drops in a 8oz of water is sufficient. I never had a problem with the soap, my DHs are some of the fastest out there, but I'll be going with water and alcohol if I remember to change the solution next time.

As we see here a few drops of soap work fine, just don't add too much and one will be fine. Still I prefer denatured alcohol.

 

Jacques

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Guides are good to use but tedious to carry while skiing. ogsmile

Regarding vernacular, I call them burrs for lack of a better, more universally recognized term. I could start calling them boogers as in 'I boogered up my edges on that rock'. :beercheer:

Although BEAST makes some small guides, they are not really needed for just removing a burr from a rock it or whatever.
Your not going to change the tune if you just go easy with say a 200 or more grit stone.
 
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Doug Briggs

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Although BEAST makes some small guides, they are not really needed for just removing a burr from a rock it or whatever.
Your not going to change the tune if you just go easy with say a 200 or more grit stone.

I agree. The intention of stoning the edge in the field is to remove the metal 'outie', not sharpen the edge. The outie causes drag and is a (minor) safety hazard. Mostly an outie is an impediment to a ski gliding smoothly through the snow. If you can notice it while skiing, it is time to stone it.
 

Jacques

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I agree. The intention of stoning the edge in the field is to remove the metal 'outie', not sharpen the edge. The outie causes drag and is a (minor) safety hazard. Mostly an outie is an impediment to a ski gliding smoothly through the snow. If you can notice it while skiing, it is time to stone it.

Burrs way amplified on ice. I feel for those East Coast ice folks! My world is seldom ice although we do have some days for sure.
The ice folks need an awesome edge always so good to carry a stone just in case.
 

Mendieta

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Using a diamond stone to remove burrs

I got these B4 Squads a little while ago and put a benchmark tune on them at work. We use a Wintersteiger belt and stone grinders and a sweet Trim Jet ceramic edger. I'll talk about machines later if people are interested. You will see the results of the ceramic edger in the photos. The tiny parallel lines at a consistent angle to the edge are from the edger. They are visible but virtually smooth. These are the same marks you'll see on new skis. The Trim Jet is the same type of machine that ski manufacturers use to prep new skis.

I took the Squads out last Monday at Keystone and inflicted a little damage. You can see that I skidded sideways over a rock (probably) and scratched the base edge and left some burrs on the side edge.



On the base edge I created 'innies': gouges in the metal that can only be completely removed by either changing the base bevel or severe grinding and re-beveling. The side edge has the remnants of the innies in the form of burrs or 'outies'. The innies aren't a big deal although they are slightly slower than a smooth edge. The outies, on the otherhand cause significant drag and are quite noticeable while skiing on firm snow. They are a hazard to your hands and clothing as well.

The first step is is work out the innies a bit. For the sake of illustration, I've used a Sharpie to mark up the edge. When you are beginning your tuning efforts, using a marker on the edges can help you see how your stone is contacting the edge.

I'm using a fairly course stone in this demonstration: a black DMT stone is what they call a 300 mesh. It will remove material quickly and makes the work go faster. On skis that really matter, you may want to use finer stones such as a red DMT. You could also start with black and redo with red. The coarser stone will leave marks of its own but as they are less deep than the innies and run in the direction of travel of the ski, the edges will be improved. Finer and finer will eventually give you a sweet, shiny polished edge.

Hold the stone so that one end is just outboard of the ski and the other end is raised in a manner that the contact of the stone is solely on the edge and mimics the base edge bevel angle. You can sight along the base edge and look for daylight (angle not matched) or no daylight (angled matched). A bright light beyond the stone can help you.



Move the stone back and forth using your inboard hand as a guide controlling the stone angle. You can go both ways because the stone is unidirectional. Move along the longitudinal axis. Your outboard hand may help the stone to track along the ski as well, but beware the outies and don't get cut. Using the marker will help you find out if you are matching the edge bevel or not. In the following photo you'll see that I used a little too more base bevel angle than the original base edge bevel (1 degree). If you have really deep innies and want them gone, this is the only way to get them out without resorting to a base grind and re-setting the base edge bevel. In this example I am slightly changing the base edge bevel. This is to favor a smooth base edge vs maintaining the base edge bevel. If these were race skis or carvers, I might leave more innie in favor or retaining the base edge bevel. As these are primarily soft snow skis, I've gone for smoother. It is also useful for you to see what happens if you don't match the base edge bevel. Most skis that are tuned by amateurs end up with an increasing base edge bevel. That is why it is recommended not to touch your base edges and leave it to a shop. With a very fine stone you can touch up your base edges as I demonstrate here without much risk of changing the bevel, but stone your base edges sparingly.


Note that the outboard part of the edge is shiny; the marker has been removed there. The next photo shows a uniform base edge polish.


Now I'll work on the side edge. Again marking the edge helps see what you are doing. Eventually you'll be able to feel and see the proper bevel angle without marking the edges.


Here is how to hold the stone on the edge.



Don't press hard, but rather let gentle pressure allow the stone to settle on the edge. Keep your thumb centered on the stone and centered over the edge. You'll note that the sidewalls were planed back (it has a greater bevel than the edge so it recedes from the edge) during the shop tune so the stone is just on the metal of the edge. My index finger is helping guide the stone.

As with the base edge bevel, move the stone forward and back along the edge. As the outies are fairly severe, the stone will drag a bit and sound rough. As you finish the stoning of the edge, the roughness will disappear along with the outies.

Before:

After:

Performing the same actions with a finer stone, then a fine gummi will smooth the edge even more. For performance carving/race skis, finish in the same fashion with a ceramic stone for the ultimate in polish. If you don't progress to finer stones, you may want to take a light pass along the base edge after doing the side edge. Every time you use an abrasive on the edge you may leave a bit of burr on the opposing side of the edge. This is known as the 'hanging burr' and is a natural result of working the metal. The finer your stones the smaller the burr. Ceramic is as fine as it gets and leaves virtually no burr.

This kind of damage can easily be addressed on the hill with a stone you carry with you. Once you are comfortable that you can match the edge bevel, just knock the outies off with a quick few passes of the stone. Focus on the side edge as that is where most outies occur.

I used still shots because the clarity is better. If a video would help you understand the motions involved, I'll set up for that.

Excellent write up, Doug. As you know, I am getting started with all this. I am getting a Diaface Moonflex Diamond Stone (200 Grit,100mm) as a general purpose diamond stone. Would that be ok for this kind of touch up?

Thanks much!
 

Captain Furious

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So, how can you tell if you have a hanging burr after you tuned your skis and did the steps indicated to knock it down? I run my finger across from base edge out but have no idea what I'm feeling for.

Also, there are some areas of my skis that no matter how much I sharpen them, they still feel dull according to my ski visions tuning stick. Should I be using a more aggressive DMT stone? If my edges are really banged up, I uses a 100 grit diamond stone to start out. I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

To be more specific, when I use the tuning stick to check for sharpness, I can get the edges to scrape off the plastic easily BUT in some short areas on the edge, the stick just "slides" down the edge as it doesn't "bite" into it. That tells me it's dull and I just don't know what to do about it.

Thoughts and suggestions?

Thanks.

Bill
 

Jacques

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So, how can you tell if you have a hanging burr after you tuned your skis and did the steps indicated to knock it down? I run my finger across from base edge out but have no idea what I'm feeling for.

Also, there are some areas of my skis that no matter how much I sharpen them, they still feel dull according to my ski visions tuning stick. Should I be using a more aggressive DMT stone? If my edges are really banged up, I uses a 100 grit diamond stone to start out. I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

To be more specific, when I use the tuning stick to check for sharpness, I can get the edges to scrape off the plastic easily BUT in some short areas on the edge, the stick just "slides" down the edge as it doesn't "bite" into it. That tells me it's dull and I just don't know what to do about it.

Thoughts and suggestions?

Thanks.

Bill

Yes. It's time to file the side edges! Good luck.
 
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Doug Briggs

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@Captain Furious , your stones and files can't sharpen what they can't touch. I will guess that the areas that don't seem to sharpen are recessed relative to the remainder of the edge. @Jacques advice is the only solution. It removes edge material until the entire edge can be sharpened.

The kind of damage that I'm envisioning is usually the result of rock damage. If you anticipate more rock damage, don't bother making your edge perfect again. if you have 50 - 90 percent of the edge sharp, you'll have good grip. Kind of like park riders that round their edges underfoot riding rails and features yet their tips and tails are still sharp, but on a different scale.
 

Wilhelmson

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In the northeast, even when there's decent snow there's a good chance that you'll hit a rock with your skis. Is it ok to use the coarse diamond stone every time you tune, maybe 10 tunes a year? Or is it better to only use the coarse stone when a burr is apparent?
 
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