Can you flex the new boot the same way you could flex the old one? Perhaps they need more input from you, wich will take some adjusting and practice. Remember the numbers are not the complete story, a 110 in one model can be stiffer than a 120 or 130 in another model, even within the same brand. I am not familiar with with the exact ones you had or have, so can't advise there. But I have seen racers in too stiff boots and they often have difficulties in getting on the front of their skis ending up back. So might as well be flex rather than what angle the cuff has.
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Back Seat- Boot Related?
- Thread starter Chip
- Start date
Thread Starter
TS
This is still in play. I went from 120 to 130 due to the fact that I felt I could easily over-flex the 120. So I do feel the new boot is a little stiffer and could play into what I was experiencing. Now that I think I have the forward lean dialed in better, I'll have to figure out if flex is playing a part in this or not. As many have stated- just need to ski with the new boots more.
Thread Starter
TS
Time for an update on this thread.
So at the end of last year I adjusted the forward lean on the boot to the maximum of 17 degrees. Out of the box it was set at 15. First trip of this season it seemed much better at 17, but still not great. So then I put it back to the 15 degree forward lean setting and tried the duct tape method my fitter suggested. I put 3 layers of duct tape behind the spoiler and went skiing. Wow! The boots came alive and I was not in the back seat. After that first day, I put 1 more layer of duct tape for the next day, my fore/aft balance seemed even better. So now I’m a happy camper with these boots. Just gotta make this fix more permanent and be done with it.
So at the end of last year I adjusted the forward lean on the boot to the maximum of 17 degrees. Out of the box it was set at 15. First trip of this season it seemed much better at 17, but still not great. So then I put it back to the 15 degree forward lean setting and tried the duct tape method my fitter suggested. I put 3 layers of duct tape behind the spoiler and went skiing. Wow! The boots came alive and I was not in the back seat. After that first day, I put 1 more layer of duct tape for the next day, my fore/aft balance seemed even better. So now I’m a happy camper with these boots. Just gotta make this fix more permanent and be done with it.
Have you thought about dropping the stiffness of the boot, and lifting the heel of your bindings up to create a delta that will work for you. Spoilers often times do more harm then good as it’s reducing ankle range of motion by pushing your ankle to a flex position right out of the gate, and they will make it even worse if the strength isn’t there to flex the boot in the first place.
Not saying you fall into this category but the number of people that get stuck in a 130 flex that should be in a 110-120 is astounding.
I’m just getting out of a pizza and learning French fries but there is no way i will ever need a stiff boot then my 140s.
Thread Starter
TS
After 5 more days of skiing out the gathering, my boots really feel dialed in. People have said that the tape isn’t doing anything, and that it’s just a placebo effect. Well, if that’s true, so be it. But I’m really liking the outcome.
I did measure all my binding deltas on 4 different pairs of skis before heading out west ( no I didn’t bring 4 pairs to the gathering ) and they are fairly similar. At this point, I’m just gonna leave them be and keep skiing them. The boot flex seems good and works for me whether carving, slarving, moguls, whatever.
I will play the with the boots some more next year to see if the tape really helps or just placebo. But for now, I’m going to put all the gear to rest.
Wisdom for the ages...
I agree that many people end up in boots that are too stiff for their physiology and skill, but some people need a higher flex rating to be the best they can be.Chip, you seem to be in a good place now. The work with cuff lean and spoilers depends a lot on one's ankle flexibility. If you have sufficient dorsiflexion then the options are open for they changes you mention. One more possibility...the cuff side adjusters are mainly for the side-to-side alignment so the cuffs match your leg angles. After this is set there may be adjustment range to move the cuff toward more lean forward while maintaining the correct side-to-side alignment for the individual. Some cuff adjusters are fixed on one side, rotate only, so this is not an option then.
If the ankles don't have sufficient dorsiflexion then the options include raising the heel bindings. Two pairs of my skis have 3 mm (1/8") plexiglass shims under the heel bindings. That puts me in my balance spot on those bindings. It's easy to make the shims; plexiglass is cut and drilled much like wood. 3 mm longer screws are needed. A small number of people benefit from heel lifts inside the boots, but these are certainly not for everyone.
If the ankles don't have sufficient dorsiflexion then the options include raising the heel bindings. Two pairs of my skis have 3 mm (1/8") plexiglass shims under the heel bindings. That puts me in my balance spot on those bindings. It's easy to make the shims; plexiglass is cut and drilled much like wood. 3 mm longer screws are needed. A small number of people benefit from heel lifts inside the boots, but these are certainly not for everyone.
This! Time and again I get confirmation of this. Just recently a guy I used to ski with came to me and said he was going to “downgrade” from F.I. 130 (Tecnica Mach 1 first gen) to 110. Because 130 “was too stiff”. After years of discussions with him, and others, about the fact that 130 or higher might not have been fit for purpose (at the time of the discussions)
I guess that 110/120 F.I. Is not “macho” enough for many, until they realize that “free” skiing in a 130 (or higher) F.I. does more harm than good, if one is not able to correctly perform with it.
Changing angle, I,again just recently, skied two different boots side by side (check my pic in the 2023-2024 logged days thread) one Tecnica R9.8 F.I. 110 and one Dalbello DRS W.C. F.I. S.S. (Where “S.S.” Stands for “Super Soft”, not “Super Stiff”). Difference in stiffness and boots widths aside (one as the name says, 98mm, the other 93mm), the foot in the Dalbello felt as I had it in an high heeled cowboy boot, compared to a much flatter stance of the foot in the Tecnica…this confirmed me what (sore hips for days aside caused by the obvious disalignement, but hey, it was Carnival) I was suspecting, the Dalbellos being more forward (and stiffer) were pushing me in the backseat, rather than helping me stay forward. To obtain that in those boots I must do a conscious efforts, less so in the Tecnica.
I was using the liners from the Dalbellos for both feet , as I have better “feelings and feedback” in a fully laced up liner, btw.
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That works for you, but I have to use the spoilers and foam on the tongue to take up space at the top of the boot. I am in the new WCR 3 Head Raptor with lace up liners and with the liner completely laced as tight as it would go, the edges of the top of the liner were touching and I still had a gap in front of my shin even with a WC Booster completely tightened. So yeah no spoiler works for you, but I can't ski without them and need additional material on in addition to the spoilers.
Your post makes me wonder - how much fore-and-aft "free play" should there be for your shin in the cuff? In my boots, I have a pretty significant range of lower leg lean between a) standing up as straight as I can and b) my shin lightly resting on the tongue, in both cases without flexing the boot at all. I'll measure it later, but I'd guesstimate about 15 degrees of "slop". Is it important to get rid of that free play?
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Personal preference I think, but if you have gap, your legs move before any pressure is exerted on boot and then to the ski. Depending on what you like, you could have a lot to none, I am trying -0-. With that said I use a real Booster" strap over the tongue and under the shell ( my new Raptor has bit of a lower shell in the front) so the Booster rests nicely over the tongue which is where it should be and has a fair amount of elasticity and rebound. I hate anchored velcro power straps for 2 reasons, can't get it tight like a real Booster and no rebound!
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do what it takes to get knees over toes leaving some ROM
One of the things while they may look the same the foot bed may not be the same configuration. This ( or forward lean) change can cause you to feel unbalanced and in effoto get back in the confortable balance you sit back.
Finding the balance point on skis with a new set up is always a bit of a challenge. The way I do it is side slips and various 360 drills (just a little) as it identifies where the balance point is on the skis. The new feeling, whether it is in my comfort zone or not is the new correct feeling and that is what is adjusted to.
Finding the balance point on skis with a new set up is always a bit of a challenge. The way I do it is side slips and various 360 drills (just a little) as it identifies where the balance point is on the skis. The new feeling, whether it is in my comfort zone or not is the new correct feeling and that is what is adjusted to.
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So how many days has op skied in the new boots now?
We don't "need" to flex a boot to ski well... assuming that you have your fore/aft alignment correct. Boot flex should be selected based on how responsive you want the boot to be to your inputs while also considering the typical speed you like to ski at and the terrain you prefer to ski on. Having a quiver of boots of different flexes isn't that crazy for the truly dedicated skier. Depending on where you'll be skiing for the day and the air temp, pick the right boot for the task.
Be careful about conflating what we do inside the boot to accommodate dorsiflexion range and what is done outside the boot for fore/aft stance alignment needs.
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Spoiler user here too. I had to get a thicker one in the Wcr3 actually.
Depends how you’re defining it. David McPhail thought free movement before hitting the front was important for balance and muscle reaction in the calf. I think he was talking 10-15 deg. However, squishing the tongue can be part of that.
I'm with @Noodler and @Atomicman stiffness and snug comfortable fit define how a boot responds to your inputs to a ski. You the skier provides the input.
Stiffness truly controls how your ski responds, ultra stiff, no forgiveness instant response, soft forgiving of errors but delayed ski response.
One other important item is the ski, ski and boot selection must match (unless you are near the higher end of the game and can adjust as a skier) as boot or ski can over power the other and create a poor experience as the skiers input is not translated correctly.
My preference is boot over ski, that way I can control the amount of input vs not being able to provide enough input.
Stiffness truly controls how your ski responds, ultra stiff, no forgiveness instant response, soft forgiving of errors but delayed ski response.
One other important item is the ski, ski and boot selection must match (unless you are near the higher end of the game and can adjust as a skier) as boot or ski can over power the other and create a poor experience as the skiers input is not translated correctly.
My preference is boot over ski, that way I can control the amount of input vs not being able to provide enough input.
I disagree with not needing a boot to flex. the flex of a boot should be based on how much input the skier can give. from a race background at a high level, i can tell you that i skied a 140 doberman for speed events, which was my specialty, and then a 150 flex for tech. i could still flex both boots. the 140 gave less harsh feed back and allowed the ski to run more smooth as the boot was removing some of the ski feedback that was rough. if i cant flex a boot, i cant initiate the turn at the tip of the ski where it is supposed to be done with modern ski technique. the biggest issue is the hybridization of modern and old school technique, which doesnt actually teach people how to ski a modern ski. too many times people say that the turn is started with the toes instead of starting a turn by rolling ankles and engaging the tips and creating the angulation at the hips. my father is NSP and a director at a mountain and has been skiing for 60 years. hes 230 and 6'3" and skis a 120 flex. he used to ski a 130 and he realized he doesnt ski as hard as he used to. 120 is plenty for him and he doesnt find himself wishing for more. he also has a hybridized style. i ski a 130-140 flex at all times but i demand more from my boots and more edge control. im 190 and 5'11".
the number of boots that i have seen fit and then the customer return to reduce the stifness far exceeds people coming back looking for more. recreational skiers that dont come from a race background and tons of training dont benefit from not being able to flex a boot.
being locked into one position and relying only on fore and aft is great until you have to actually make athletic movements in technical terrain. if the idea is just ripping groomers and thats high level skiing, then fine lock yourself in to one position and call it high level skiing, but truth be told there is a lot more to skiing then linking railroad tracks down a groomer.
matching boots to skis is also extremely important as well. i dont ski my race boots on my powder skis and i dont ski my hybrid boots on my race skis. and my touring boot stays to touring or maybe an occasional powder day depending on snow.
bottom line, stiff for one skier may not be stiff for another skier. i can ski a 150 or more flex, but it takes more input and its not as fun. so be real with yourselves when purchasing boots. and leave egos at the door. id rather have a day with gear im not fighting then a day with gear thats beating me up.
the number of boots that i have seen fit and then the customer return to reduce the stifness far exceeds people coming back looking for more. recreational skiers that dont come from a race background and tons of training dont benefit from not being able to flex a boot.
being locked into one position and relying only on fore and aft is great until you have to actually make athletic movements in technical terrain. if the idea is just ripping groomers and thats high level skiing, then fine lock yourself in to one position and call it high level skiing, but truth be told there is a lot more to skiing then linking railroad tracks down a groomer.
matching boots to skis is also extremely important as well. i dont ski my race boots on my powder skis and i dont ski my hybrid boots on my race skis. and my touring boot stays to touring or maybe an occasional powder day depending on snow.
bottom line, stiff for one skier may not be stiff for another skier. i can ski a 150 or more flex, but it takes more input and its not as fun. so be real with yourselves when purchasing boots. and leave egos at the door. id rather have a day with gear im not fighting then a day with gear thats beating me up.
Having some boot flex makes the ride over a chunky frozen surface a lot more comfortable and stable.