Back Seat- Boot Related?

[Chip]

So while I was just skiing up at Stowe and Jay Peak this past week I experienced something that I rarely ever do- and that’s ending up in the back seat in moguls. This happened with 3 different pairs of skis. So during my long drive back home I started thinking about why. The only thing that has changed in my setup/equipment are my boots. While I was getting fitted for the new boots, we discussed forward lean, and I wanted to make sure that we got that correct. So what the fitter did was to place each boot (old and new) against the wall and measure out to the top of the cuff. Well, we got those measurements almost exact. But this got me thinking- What if the boots are different heights? Then these measurements would result in different angles. When I got home, I pulled out the old boots and sure enough the cuff height is different with the old boot being shorter. The diagram below shows what I’m talking about.

Then I placed each boot against a flat surface and snapped this picture- old boot forefront, new boot behind. To me the old boot has more forward lean and more closely matches my normal skiing stance- new boots I do feel more upright.

Old Boot- Salomon Impact 10 CS

New Boot- Atomic Hawx Prime 130s

To me this seems like the culprit of my backseat skiing.

Have at it all you ski talkers that know more than I do.

 

[Sherman89]

As a ski instructor/race coach I see lot's of backseat skiers daily especially those beginner/intermediates in rental boots. a lot of the time the student can't get forward because the boot will not allow it---loosing the top bucket help a bit but the boot does not allow forward lean/flex of the ankle/knee combo which is needed to move the hips forward in a fore/aft movement. A quick way for you to find out is go back to your old boots with the new skis and find out in the bumps. I have corrected this situation by replacing the boot with one that has more forward lean built into the boot. This is a very simple explanation, I am sure you will get detailed responses.

 

[Tricia]

Interesting topic.
@Philpug tends to like more forward lean in a boot, while @Andy Mink and I tend to like a more upright boot.
I'm in a boot currently that allows me to adjust which I'm planning on playing with for a bit to see if I may like a bit more forward lean.

Thinking.....

 

[Chip]

As a ski instructor/race coach I see lot's of backseat skiers daily especially those beginner/intermediates in rental boots. a lot of the time the student can't get forward because the boot will not allow it---loosing the top bucket help a bit but the boot does not allow forward lean/flex of the ankle/knee combo which is needed to move the hips forward in a fore/aft movement. A quick way for you to find out is go back to your old boots with the new skis and find out in the bumps.

I wish I took the old boots with me, but I didn't. Two sets of skis have many bumps runs with me, the third pair of skis are new to me during the trip. But I'm afraid that any testing will have to wait until next year

 

[surfsnowgirl]

Last season during a private I learned my boots were so upright it was hard for me to close and flex my ankles so I was having back seat tendencies and as the skis weren't under me often kicked out on me.

It was suggested I put a spoiler in my boots. I went to see my fitter, explained what the instructor observed and what was happening during my skiing. In the spoilers went at the angle he suggested. He suggested I try this pitch and he could angle more as necessary.

Problem solved. Basically how my boots are now makes it pretty hard for me to get in the back seat. Walking is a little awkward but it's night and day with my skiing. Back seat skiing with skis kicking out on me seems to be a thing of the past thankfully.

 

[Chip]

Last season during a private I learned my boots were so upright it was hard for me to close and flex my ankles so I was having back seat tendencies and as the skis weren't under me often kicked out on me.

It was suggested I put a spoiler in my boots. I went to see my filter, explained what the instructor observed and what was happening during my skiing. In the spoilers went at the angle he suggested. He suggested I try this pitc and he could angle more as necessary.

Problem solved. Basically how my boots are now makes it pretty hard for me to get in the back seat. Walking is a little awkward but it's night and day with my skiing. Back seat skiing with skis kicking out on me seems to be a thing of the past thankfully.

I do have the atomic spoilers inserted already. What my fitter suggested, when I got the boots, was to fine tune the forward lean. What he suggested to do was to get some gorilla tape and put three layers together with the last layer wider than the first two and this will be about 1mm thick. Told me to make up 3 sets of these for each boot and just place them on the boots under the ski pants. Then during the day to remove one set and place it behind the spoiler and ski some. Then place another set and ski some more. He has the same boots as I have, and he did this with his own boots and said you'll know when you get the correct amount of forward lean. But I didn't do this. But hey- there's always next year to try this out...

 

[MissySki]

Last season during a private I learned my boots were so upright it was hard for me to close and flex my ankles so I was having back seat tendencies and as the skis weren't under me often kicked out on me.

It was suggested I put a spoiler in my boots. I went to see my filter, explained what the instructor observed and what was happening during my skiing. In the spoilers went at the angle he suggested. He suggested I try this pitc and he could angle more as necessary.

Problem solved. Basically how my boots are now makes it pretty hard for me to get in the back seat. Walking is a little awkward but it's night and day with my skiing. Back seat skiing with skis kicking out on me seems to be a thing of the past thankfully.

For me spoilers equal disaster. I was having trouble getting forward in my new stiffer boots last season.. so it was suggested that I try a spoiler as well. Unfortunately for my anatomy (longer lower leg to femur ratio), pushing my knees further forward just makes me sit back more to compensate. Same thing happens with heel lifts and bindings with too high of a ramp angle. I could actually use a taller boot that keeps me more upright.. but women's in my size are shorter then we'd like for me and men's don't come in my size in appropriate models. But I digress..

Anyway, for me it seemed to be getting used to the increased stiffness and learning how to flex my ankles more appropriately to stay out of the backseat and stop skis from squirting out in front of me. I'm at 72 days on these boots now and I don't have this problem anymore. It turned out that my backseat woes were more technique and getting used to the increased stiffness of my boots. Now I love them.

 

[Tom K.]

New Boot- Atomic Hawx Prime 130s

Doesn't this boot have a fairly simple forward lean adjustment?

If so, try more forward lean. If that doesn't solve things, try less?

For a bunch of reasons, I ended up skiing my old Langes for a couple days last season, and couldn't figure out what went wrong......oops, I had removed the spoilers and forgotten about it. Problem solved easily!

 

[Chip]

Doesn't this boot have a fairly simple forward lean adjustment?

If so, try more forward lean. If that doesn't solve things, try less?

For a bunch of reasons, I ended up skiing my old Langes for a couple days last season, and couldn't figure out what went wrong......oops, I had removed the spoilers and forgotten about it. Problem solved easily!

The boots do have some lean adjustments- just not that much. But these responses are helping with my path forward.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

For me spoilers equal disaster. I was having trouble getting forward in my new stiffer boots last season.. so it was suggested that I try a spoiler as well. Unfortunately for my anatomy (longer lower leg to femur ratio), pushing my knees further forward just makes me sit back more to compensate. Same thing happens with heel lifts and bindings with too high of a ramp angle. I could actually use a taller boot that keeps me more upright.. but women's in my size are shorter then we'd like for me and men's don't come in my size in appropriate models. But I digress..

Anyway, for me it seemed to be getting used to the increased stiffness and learning how to flex my ankles more appropriately to stay out of the backseat and stop skis from squirting out in front of me. I'm at 72 days on these boots now and I don't have this problem anymore. It turned out that my backseat woes were more technique and getting used to the increased stiffness of my boots. Now I love them.

I credit my spoilers for saving me however, I've had major technique growth this season due to some great clinics so it very well could be this that solved my back seat problem or a combination of this and the spoilers. Either way I've had so many customizations to my boots and am very pleased with my skiing these days. I've never had ski boots that have made my so happy before this. Cheers to Torin.

 

[Jilly]

Not sure if the back of your boots look like my Atomic Prime's. But there is the easy adjustment .

 

[Chris V.]

Might the higher cuffs be affecting the effective amount of flex you get in the new boots? Something you may need to compare is the shin angles you get in the two pair, when you're applying moderate force into the cuffs.

Either way, hie thee to an alignment specialist. Adjustments are possible inside and outside the boots, and the effects aren't the same.

 

[Chip]

Not sure if the back of your boots look like my Atomic Prime's. But there is the easy adjustment .

Well that's the issue with these boots is the adjustment is not as simple as it looks. I chatted with @onenerdykid regarding this adjustment. Here's what I found from our conversation plus messing around with the boots.
1- the pointer will not move off of the 15 mark.
2- as explained to me during our conversation- it is a two person job (not really, but easier). Get into the boot and get it snug, loosen both screws (T-30), lean forward and tighten both screws
3- no idea how much lean was gained as the Power Shift cover does not slide up or down- just see more space between the bottom of the Power Shift cover and the top of the heel. It's a visual confirmation that more forward lean was obtained, because the pointer will not move off the 15 mark.
4- the instructions that come with the boot are useless and incorrect for adjusting the forward lean.

What I would like to see from Atomic is to have separate 15, 16 and 17 degree Power Shift covers to use that are designed correctly and corresponds to the actual numbers next to the cover. At 15 degrees the bottom of the cover is in contact with the top of the heel (look at @Jilly picture), so when you increase forward lean there is separation between these two locations and it's just the screws that are holding the boot more forward. I would like to still see the two pieces in contact with each other as this would probably keep it locked in better. If the screws get loose at all, the boot will go back to the 15 degree lean.

That being said, I did adjust the forward lean to as much as I could last. I now have at least a 1mm gap between the cover and the heel on both boots.

 

[1Turn2Many]

You got new boots. Your highly tuned body is used to your old boots. Before you mod your boots, ski them a bit and your advanced bio system will adjust accordingly. You might end up liking them better the way they are.

 

[Chip]

You got new boots. Your highly tuned body is used to your old boots. Before you mod your boots, ski them a bit and your advanced bio system will adjust accordingly. You might end up liking them better the way they are.

Not a bad suggest- wouldn't be the first time I had to figure out how to do something when the stars aren't aligned. That being said, right now I'm just planning on tweaking them with out really modifying the boots. The lean adjustment and potentially trying the tape method would be easy to do and not physically change the boot shell. But being in the back seat on a glade run can scare the crap outta you....

 

[dbostedo]

You got new boots. Your highly tuned body is used to your old boots. Before you mod your boots, ski them a bit and your advanced bio system will adjust accordingly. You might end up liking them better the way they are.

This is what I was thinking...

I got new boots this season and thought about increasing the forward lean after the first day - even asked on here about it. But after a few days, I haven't changed anything and I think they're great. I adjusted myself, one way or the other.

 

[Chip]

This is what I was thinking...

I got new boots this season and thought about increasing the forward lean after the first day - even asked on here about it. But after a few days, I haven't changed anything and I think they're great. I adjusted myself, one way or the other.

But I liked the way I skied before....

 

[dbostedo]

But I liked the way I skied before....

So did I... so do I... I don't think I'm skiing different. Nothing I can point to or notice at this point anyway.

 

[Rod9301]

I don't get how you could not be forward in bumps even with a more upright boot.
When you crest the bump, you are supposed to be back, because you absorbed the bump by deeply flexing the legs.
So on top of the bump, you are making snow contact just under your bindings, the tips and tails are basically not making contact with the snow.

If at that point you pull your feet back, bingo, you're instantly centered. And the ski tips go way down on the back side of the bump. So the skis went from being horizontal on top of the bump to maybe 30 degrees inclined to match the angle of the back side of the bump.
In other words, a lot more then the couple of degrees that your new boots are more upright.

 

[Nobody]

You got new boots. Your highly tuned body is used to your old boots. Before you mod your boots, ski them a bit and your advanced bio system will adjust accordingly. You might end up liking them better the way they are.

QTF
I switched from Tecnica 9.8r 110 to Dalbello DRS 110, BC (Before COVID, in fact right in Jan-Feb-March 2020)
At first all seemed ok, then coaches/instructors started to tell me I was too upright, sometimes too "jumpy" in the STs. Then outright in the backseat.
In a panic, thinking the DB were to upright compared to the Tecnica, I attempted "all" sort of solution (spoiler, no spoiler, custom foot-bed, no custom foot-bed) even put the DB liners into the Tecnica shells (which seemed to obtain two effects, make me feel the Tecnica as if they were a bit stiffer, and felt it put me in the "right" stance). Next season doesn't really count as I skied "full" DBs but without much of a feedback (I did not feel in the backseat, but wasn't really applying myself to a self conscious/self analysis type of skiing)...and then,
at the end of the season (after having being ill and recovering for most of the winter due to you-know-what) I tried to ski in "full" Tecnica and compare to "full" DBs...meh, couldn't come to a definitive conclusion, except that the Tecnica were too worn out (also size were different 27.5 the Tecnica and 26.5 the DBs)
Fast forward to this winter, again I was told and felt I was being in the backseat. This time I was skiing DBs only. So started again to panic. Tried this and that, take the spolier out seemed to apport some relief (at least I felt), but when I skied under the eye of a coach in January, again I was told I was in the backseat. Until, until I started to conciously lean forward, almost to the point I felt I was falling over myself. At that point the coach started to acknowledge I was no longer in the back seat. See, it was not the boot, it was me. I even added the spoiler back but as long as I was making a concious effort to "lean forward" (feel "all" the pressure of my body-weight on the toes and first half of the feet) I was not feeling myself, and be told to be, in the backseat.
Even to this day, I must consciously apply myself in staying centered, which, feeling-wise, means I must feel myself almost too far forward...
So, work on yourself first, or at least be as sure as you can of yourself, then get to work on the equipment settings.