All season/all weather M+S tires for my 2018 VW Golf R

[MattSmith]

I thought you had to have the 'SNOWFLAKE' symbol to get though not a M&S designation. They are not the same thing. See below...

Winter / Snow Tire Tech: What is the Three-Peak Mountain Snowflake Symbol?

A three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol branded on a tire's sidewall indicates the tire meets required performance criteria in snow testing to be considered severe snow service-rated. Originally used as a designation for winter tires, the 3PMSF symbol is now featured on some all-season and all-terrain tires with snow performance that meets the testing criteria.

• Testing measures a tire's acceleration traction on medium-packed snow only. Braking and turning on snow, along with ice traction are not components of the test.
  
  
• Tires branded with the 3PMSF symbol are expected to provide improved snow traction beyond a standard M+S branded all-season tire.

NOTE: 3PMSF-branded all-season and all-terrain tires cannot match the traction of dedicated winter / snow tires in all winter weather conditions and should not be considered a replacement for where and when a dedicated winter tire is needed.

In 1999, The U.S. Tire Manufacturers Association (USTMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance based standard to identify passenger and light truck tires that attain a traction index equal to, or greater than 110 (compared to a reference tire which is rated 100) during the specified American Society for Testing and Materials traction tests on packed snow. The standard helps ensure drivers can easily identify tires that provide a higher level of snow traction, and tires meeting that standard are branded with the three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol.

Note: A Highway Safety Code regulation passed September 17, 2008 for Quebec, Canada, stipulates that: "Between 15 December to 15 March, the owner of a taxi or passenger vehicle registered in Quebec may not put the vehicle into operation unless it is equipped with tires specifically designed for winter driving, in compliance with the standards prescribed by government regulation. The prohibition also applies to any person renting out passenger vehicles not equipped with that type of tires."

Starting December 15, 2014, the Highway Safety Code regulation specifies only tires bearing the three-peak mountain snowflake symbol will be considered acceptable winter/snow tires in Quebec.

"A three-peak mountain snowflake symbol branded on the tire's sidewall indicates the tire meets required performance criteria in snow testing to be considered severe snow service rated."

What's the difference in snow traction between M+S (Mud and Snow) branded tires from the past, modern all-season tires with M+S branding and a purpose-built winter/snow tire? While many drivers probably aren't absolutely sure, it can be the difference between getting to work, getting home or getting stuck.

The original definition of M+S (Mud and Snow) tires is based on the geometry of the tread design and requires no actual performance standard to achieve. The M+S designation was first used to differentiate the knobby, bias ply tires intended for use on muddy and/or snow-covered roads from the straight rib tires used on early cars or trucks. Tires with tread designs that meet the definition may be branded with the letters "M" and "S" in several different ways (e.g., M&S, M+S, M/S, MS, etc.) at the discretion of the tire manufacturer.

When early radial ply tires were also found to deliver more snow traction than the straight rib, bias ply tires, the tire companies introduced all-season tires. Supported by advertising, all-season tires have presented an unspoken promise that they, throughout their life, can provide traction for all seasons...through spring's rain, summer's heat, fall's cooling and winter's snow. While this combined offering has made all-season tires popular, many drivers have learned that a geometric definition doesn't guarantee winter snow and ice traction.

Thank you for the excellent information and advice. Good topic from the OP. I'm curious how people find driving with snow tires in non-inclement conditions. Not to hijack the thread, but here's my situation.

I drive a 2012 Audi A4 Quattro in New England. I'll drive from Boston to Bozman in February and stay until May. I'm considering putting winter or 3PMS tires on for the trip. I blew a tire on the way to Jay Peak last winter and ended up with 4 new Kelly Edge HP all-seasons. (245/40R18) If the shop had winter tires in stock, I'd have probably had them put on.

I've never driven on anything but quality all-season tires in the winter. I'm concerned about increased road noise and wear on the 2300+ mile drive. Left uninfluenced, I'll likely keep the all-seasons and pick up a set of "snow socks" for the unexpected or emergency situation. I've made it through some pretty nasty driving, but if conditions are so severely inclement I'm sensible enough to stay put and shelter in place.

So what do you think? I'll expect to put 6k-7k miles on the tires. Snow or all-season?

 

[4ster]

I've never driven on anything but quality all-season tires in the winter. I'm concerned about increased road noise and wear on the 2300+ mile drive.

I usually just turn the tunes up really loud if there is a road noise!

 

[MattSmith]

^^^
Nice heels!

 

[Bruuuce]

I went with a set of Dunlop Winter Sport 3D's for a couple of seasons on a BMW RWD 330 that I had. I wanted better handling than Blizzaks or Hakkas so I risked it. They actually worked relatively well in snow (about like the 2nd 1/2 or Blizzak tread) and the handling was excellent. I ended up just leaving them on in the summer since they handled as well as they did. Not quite the winter performance of the other two, but vastly improved handling. Maybe look at something like this and buy a couple of sets of Autosocks for the scary situations.

 

[tball]

Sweet Golf R @4ster! And, great topic of what to do for winter tires on a performance car.

I'm a Michelin fanboy and suggest considering their Premier A/S and new Crossclimate+. They both fall into the "Grand Touring" class of all-season tires designed for performance oriented vehicles. The new Crossclimate+ has the 3PMS mountain snowflake symbol. Not sure if either will fit your 19" wheels, but sounds like you might be looking for a wheel change anyway.

I've got the Premier A/S on my RWD G35, and they do well in the snow, making the car get around fine in Denver in all but the worst conditions. The Premier A/S's are even better in the snow than the Michelin MXV4's I ran previously.

My G doesn't go into the mountain much in the winter, but remarkably the MXV4's got me home from Moab in a monster spring storm that made conditions on I-70 as bad as they get before it closes. Fortunately, the tires were relatively new. It was super sketchy on the steep approaches, and I'm reasonably sure I wouldn't have made it with lesser tires or if the tires were worn.

Snow performance drops off substantially after a season or two with an all-season tire, so one thought is to sell them when they get to 50% tread and buy a new set if you go with something like the Premier A/S. It's that big of a difference in the winter with more tread.

I've also run Xice-3's on my G the last few winters. The car had required nanny duty a couple days a week and I wanted the extra margin of safety. The X-ice's are far superior in the snow and ice than even the best all-season tires, but I wouldn't consider running them through the summer. They do OK in the dry, but the performance isn't there on dry roads for a fun car.

I'm excited about Michelin's new Crossclimate+. Not sure if my G35 will be around long enough, but they could end up on a G37S 6MT sedan if I can find one.

The Crossclimate is one of a handful of Grand Touring tires with the mountain snowflake symbol. Maybe one of those will fit your current wheels if you decide to stick with them. Here's an overview and comparison from Tirerack:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=231
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/videoDisplay.jsp?ttid=231&videoID=545

Finally, I have to add that as with skis and bikes the correct answer is always a quiver. A Toyota 4x4 with studded Hakkapeliitta's would be the perfect compliment to your awesome new Golf R!

 

[4ster]

^Yes, this is what I hope to do & the topic of this thread, just worried about the big rim issue now. Also, I think clearance is more of an issue for me than traction.

Maybe look at something like this and buy a couple of sets of Autosocks for the scary situations.

The 2nd mention of "Autosocks"? What are they?

 

[4ster]

The Crossclimate is one of a handful of Grand Touring tires with the mountain snowflake symbol. Maybe one of those will fit your current wheels if you decide to stick with them. Here's an overview and comparison from Tirerack:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=231
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/videoDisplay.jsp?ttid=231&videoID=545

Thank you, this is the kind of information I am looking for.
I have had lots of All Season tires over the decades & totally agree that they lose snow performance once the tread begins to wear. I have usually worn them till they are down to the threads though. Like I said earlier, I seem to go through tires pretty quickly.

Finally, I have to add that as with skis and bikes the correct answer is a quiver. A Toyota 4x4 with studded Hakkapeliitta's would be the perfect compliment to your awesome new Golf R

Maybe someday

 

[4ster]

I drive a GTI in the snow here in the Northeast.

@tch a little off topic but how are those GTI wipers working in a blizzard?

 

[Bruuuce]

The 2nd mention of "Autosocks"? What are they?

Autosocks are fabric "chains" that can be used when chains are required. They are approved by CDOT as a substitute for chains. I haven't had to use mine yet, but have heard from people who have that they work great. They are also really easy to put on and take off. I got mine new on eBay for about 40% off retail. They come up every now and then at great prices. I still have a set of "real" chains for my truck, but have these for my car which currently has no-season tires on it.

A link to the mfg site: https://autosock.us/

 

[4ster]

Autosocks are fabric "chains" that can be used when chains are required. They are approved by CDOT as a substitute for chains. I haven't had to use mine yet, but have heard from people who have that they work great. They are also really easy to put on and take off. I got mine new on eBay for about 40% off retail. They come up every now and then at great prices. I still have a set of "real" chains for my truck, but have these for my car which currently has no-season tires on it.

A link to the mfg site: https://autosock.us/

Thanks, I may have to look into those.
I am pretty sure my present car will not take chains, maybe autosocks will work. Except for five years, since 1980 I have had 4WD or AWD cars with either snow tires or as you call them no season tires. During that time I put one chain on one wheel because I got pulled over at the top of Carson Pass driving from Kirkwood with no chains during R2 controls. I got a ticket even though I had already made it to the top.

 

[tch]

@tch a little off topic but how are those GTI wipers working in a blizzard?

I haven't had any problems. Is there a reason you're worried?

 

[tch]

Thank you for the excellent information and advice. Good topic from the OP. I'm curious how people find driving with snow tires in non-inclement conditions. Not to hijack the thread, but here's my situation.

I drive a 2012 Audi A4 Quattro in New England. I'll drive from Boston to Bozman in February and stay until May. I'm considering putting winter or 3PMS tires on for the trip. I blew a tire on the way to Jay Peak last winter and ended up with 4 new Kelly Edge HP all-seasons. (245/40R18) If the shop had winter tires in stock, I'd have probably had them put on.

I've never driven on anything but quality all-season tires in the winter. I'm concerned about increased road noise and wear on the 2300+ mile drive. Left uninfluenced, I'll likely keep the all-seasons and pick up a set of "snow socks" for the unexpected or emergency situation. I've made it through some pretty nasty driving, but if conditions are so severely inclement I'm sensible enough to stay put and shelter in place.

So what do you think? I'll expect to put 6k-7k miles on the tires. Snow or all-season?

For one data point: I put 4 Continental WinterContactSI's on my other car (VW 4Motion Golf Wagon) last year and drove it from CT out west on a 6-week trip and then back home. ~9,000 miles. I did not find the road noise to be an issue, and they wore surprisingly well considering how much highway mileage I did. They paid for themselves several times in Little Cottonwood Canyon, the Snowbasin access road, Teton Pass, and getting out of Snowmass during an 11" dump.

 

[4ster]

I haven't had any problems. Is there a reason you're worried?

The few times I’ve had occasion to turn them on they seemed a bit weak for such a quality car. Probably nothing to worry about, I will invest in some good snow blades.

 

[jzmtl]

Mentioning Premier A/S reminded me of my experience last season. It was end of winter, and temperature in town was high enough that I had switched back to all season tires already, then it snowed again in the hills. My Forester's OEM tires are universally panned as shit in snow, so I borrow my parents' car with almost new Premier A/S which had favorable snow performance reviews on tirerack.

Well no it doesn't, now I'm confident to say the tirerack reviewers who give it good snow performance came from bald all season tires and has never drove on winter tires. I can feel the tail end shimmy whenever there's any sort of snow cover on highway, which I have never experienced on winter tires, including in the same car wearing no name cheap winters. The drive there was seriously butt clenching, luckily the sun melted most of the snow so drive back was uneventful.

So moral of the story is even cheap no name winter tires works better than the best all season in snow.

 

[oldschoolskier]

A big second reason for winter tires (and more importantly rims) is road (pot holes), road salt (corrosion) and ice damage (hitting a chuck dropped from another car) to them (especially on the VW’s). A bigger sidewall and narrower thread absorbs impact better and gets more grip on the road (less floaty in snow). The second benefit is the cheap steel rims they are mounted on, less likely to pick up snow and cost less if bent or damaged.

VW rims can damage easily, been there done that more than once. Best solution is to avoid it in the first place.

 

[PinnacleJim]

You have limited choices with the 19 inch wheels. Of the A/S tires that are available I would go with the Conti ExtremeContact DWS 06. One of the better UHP A/S tires with decent snow performance. The Golf R did also come with 18 inch wheels. If you switch to those, your options are improved. Like the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ which is about as good as you can get with an A/S tire with decent snow performance.

Here's some good reading on Tirerack.com.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=230

 

[doc]

Partially agree with @PinnacleJim on this. I have the Conti DWS06 on two of my cars (both AWD Audis) and on my wife's SUV, and they are a nice blend of dry and snow performance. I have the Michelin A/S 3+ on a third AWD Audi and, frankly, they suck in the snow as compared to the DWS06s (although they are superior to the DWS06 in dry conditions). Will mount performance snows on my ski car, however, because even the DWS06 get overmatched pretty quickly in decent amounts of snow. All of the cars are on 19" wheels which really does limit tire selection, so have some aftermarket 18" wheels on ski car.

 

[PinnacleJim]

Interesting that doc's experience with the Michelin A/S 3+ is different than the Tirerack tests and the Tirerack customer reviews. The DWS06 and the A/S 3+ are both at the top in the Tirerack tests and customer reviews for snow performance. FWIW I am running the BFG Comp-2 A/S which is rated just slightly below the above two for snow performance. When I got the BFGs, I was looking for the DWS06 but the local shop didn't have them in stock and had a great price on the BFGs. I am happy with the BFGs having run them year round for about 2 years with about 2 weeks each month in the winter in Vermont. As good as dedicated winters tires? No. But on my AWD BMW X1, surprising good winter performance.

 

[Andy Mink]

I know you're not looking for the two set option but here's my experience. 2005 Mini Cooper S convertible w/17" rims. I went down, I believe, two widths and 1" on steel rims. I put Michelin X-Ice tires on. They work quite well on the nice days too. As long as you're not plowing too much snow they perform really well on icy, snow covered roads. The swap out literally takes less than 45 minutes. 1.5 hours per year to have WAY better traction on sketchy roads was worth it in my situation. Plus, the tires aren't horribly expensive in small car sizes.
YMMV

 

[4ster]

I know you're not looking for the two set option but here's my experience. 2005 Mini Cooper S convertible w/17" rims. I went down, I believe, two widths and 1" on steel rims. I put Michelin X-Ice tires on. They work quite well on the nice days too. As long as you're not plowing too much snow they perform really well on icy, snow covered roads. The swap out literally takes less than 45 minutes. 1.5 hours per year to have WAY better traction on sketchy roads was worth it in my situation. Plus, the tires aren't horribly expensive in small car sizes.
YMMV

Even if I went the 2 sets route, I would still want all season tires for spring and fall. I just can’t trust summer tires when there is a pop-up storm early and late season & I need to get to the freshies.

This thread has given me some good things to think about and a number of possible solutions.
Thanks to everyone who has posted so far.