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All season/all weather M+S tires for my 2018 VW Golf R

4ster

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After skimming through a few of the tire related threads on this forum, I thought I would ask some questions here?

My last 2 cars were Subaru WRX's, first a 2004 then a 2012 & mostly Legacy wagons before that. Needing to replace the 2012, I was in a dilemma to find a vehicle with at least the same performance in a hatchback with manual transmission. The Golf R checked those boxes. Was is the responsible/practical choice?, probably not but it sure is fun to drive!
VW at GC.JPG


When my last car was new I bought separate rims & ran dedicated snow tires in the winter until they wore out. For the previous 20+ years, I had always just used all season tires with the M+S stamp on them without any real issues. Yes, the real snow tires were awesome but for many reasons it is pain in the ass for me to have to switch seasonally & now I am stuck with a set of rims I cannot use. My new VW came with low profile 235/35 R19 Pirelli P ZERO's which are summer tires.
VW in garage.JPG


First question. Will Les Schwab price match?

I am looking at either Toyo Proxes 4 Plus All Seasons or Pirelli P Zero All Season Plus tires. Anyone have any input on either of these tires?

I had some P Zero All Seasons on my 2004 WRX & they were nice & sticky but only lasted about 15K miles (I tend to drive hard on winding mountain roads & go through tires quickly). I am not dead set on either of these tires but those were 2 that came up on Tire Rack. The Tire Rack price on the Proxes 4's was more than $100 less than Les Scwab's price. BTW, the Proxes were the only tires for my car on the Les Schwab site. I would like to get them from Les Schwab for the convenience of having a shop close to me in both Tahoe & Ogden.

VW rim & tire.JPG
 

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Jim, what would concern me is what i have experienced in the past that when the tire has such a low profile as that, once you get any depth of snow, the snow starts grabbing the wheel much more than it does the tire and causing strange reactions. Nice ride though
 
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4ster

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Jim, what would concern me is what i have experienced in the past that when the tire has such a low profile as that, once you get any depth of snow, the snow starts grabbing the wheel much more than it does the tire and causing strange reactions. Nice ride though
Thanks for the reply but I don't really have many options? What do you mean by "grabbing the wheel" ? The rim?
I don't have much clearance either but I've always managed to get there in time for first chair on the biggest powder days ;) . I really just need the M+S stamp so I can get through California chain controls & I always carry a probe & shovel!
 

ScotsSkier

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Thanks for the reply but I don't really have many options? What do you mean by "grabbing the wheel" ? The rim?
I don't have much clearance either but I've always managed to get there in time for first chair on the biggest powder days ;) . I really just need the M+S stamp so I can get through California chain controls & I always carry a probe & shovel!

Yes, I have found with really low profile sidewalls the snow seems to grab the rim
 

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Very nice ride! One that gets a lot of discussion in our family, BTW.

I have a close fried who owns one, and lives in Burlington, VT. Serious car guy. I'll ask him about his winter set up.

Do you need the 19" wheels to clear the calipers and rotors, or can you get by with an 18" to even 17" wheel/rim?

I know you're a grown up, and. savvy one but I'm going to repeat what my 32year old son always reminds people. The only thing that keeps you on the road and touches the road are your tires, so you do want to get it right.

We have had all of our cars shod with Hakka's for the past 5 or so seasons. When I say "we" that's our extend family....kids, nieces, my brother and sister in law, us. Maybe 12 vehicles. Some that you would consider to be decent performance cars, but nothing quite like the R, in terms of size and performance. I'm just not up t speed on you options. I will ask my buddy, as he's a real resource.

I agree with SS. My brother and I have both had the problem. It's a pretty "funky" feel. I was able to sneak a smaller wheel over my brakes. My brother was not.....and takes the car off the road in the winter.
 
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4ster

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Very nice ride! One that gets a lot of discussion in our family, BTW.

I have a close fried who owns one, and lives in Burlington, VT. Serious car guy. I'll ask him about his winter set up.

Do you need the 19" wheels to clear the calipers and rotors, or can you get by with an 18" to even 17" wheel/rim?

I know you're a grown up, and. savvy one but I'm going to repeat what my 32year old son always reminds people. The only thing that keeps you on the road and touches the road are your tires, so you do want to get it right.

We have had all of our cars shod with Hakka's for the past 5 or so seasons. When I say "we" that's our extend family....kids, nieces, my brother and sister in law, us. Maybe 12 vehicles. Some that you would consider to be decent performance cars, but nothing quite like the R, in terms of size and performance. I'm just not up t speed on you options. I will ask my buddy, as he's a real resource.

I agree with SS. My brother and I have both had the problem. It's a pretty "funky" feel. I was able to sneak a smaller wheel over my brakes. My brother was not.....and takes the car off the road in the winter.
Well I am a grown man but not sure how Savvy I am. I don’t know if I can use smaller diameter rims or not, I would prefer not to deal with spare rims or changing wheels seasonally. I am a one car does it all kind of guy and since I spend most of my time in the mountains we can experience different seasons almost any time of year. Reality is that I would only be comfortable with summer tires for July and August.
I would love to hear what your friend has to say as I am sure he is more savvy than I. I’m sure I should have sorted some of these issues out before I bought the car. But after looking for this particular vehicle for more than six months I realized exactly what I was looking for was not easy to come by. When my exact car showed up on a lot within striking distance & they exceeded my trade in expectations, I decided I had better jump on it.
I have 17 inch rims sitting in my garage right now but of course they have a completely different bolt pattern. I just put them up for sale for probably way less than they’re worth. Price we pay for convenience :huh: .
Thanks
 
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Extra set of rims. I assume you can't get anything smaller that 17" over the brakes?
 
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4ster

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Is there a snow performance angle here? Or just which tires are better..

All else being equal I would lean towards snow performance. Reality is even though I drive back-and-forth to the ski resort daily, in an average year only a small percentage of those days are the roads snowy. I am more worried about others being stuck & keeping me from getting there than me, even with substandard tires.
Not that I want substandard tires BTW :Cristmassnow:
 

tch

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Do NOT think all-season tires will get you through snow or that snow tires will be fine for summer/spirited driving. As some here say about "all mountain" skis, you have all the compromises and none of the strengths if you try to find one tire for everything.

I drive a GTI in the snow here in the Northeast. Definitely go minus-1 on the tire size...at least. Places like TireRack.com have lots of info on their sites and probably can tell you what size or even brand of rim will fit. You want a narrower, taller tire to penetrate the snow and also provide some cushion for the inevitable potholes. Personally, I move from stock 18" high performance tires to 17" rims with dedicated snows in the winter. I paid $500 for the rims, but I get it back every time I skip the shop mount and simply jack the car and switch rim/tire combo in spring and fall.

Lots of love here for Hakka's, but I'm not convinced one specific tire is absolutely best. I've had good luck with Continentals, Michelins, and Bridgestone. Read a few reviews at Tire Rack or other online retailer.
 
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4ster

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Do NOT think all-season tires will get you through snow or that snow tires will be fine for summer/spirited driving. As some here say about "all mountain" skis, you have all the compromises and none of the strengths if you try to find one tire for everything.

I drive a GTI in the snow here in the Northeast. Definitely go minus-1 on the tire size...at least. Places like TireRack.com have lots of info on their sites and probably can tell you what size or even brand of rim will fit. You want a narrower, taller tire to penetrate the snow and also provide some cushion for the inevitable potholes. Personally, I move from stock 18" high performance tires to 17" rims with dedicated snows in the winter. I paid $500 for the rims, but I get it back every time I skip the shop mount and simply jack the car and switch rim/tire combo in spring and fall.

Lots of love here for Hakka's, but I'm not convinced one specific tire is absolutely best. I've had good luck with Continentals, Michelins, and Bridgestone. Read a few reviews at Tire Rack or other online retailer.

Okay, thanks. I took another look at my spare 17 inch rims and I am thinking I need to investigate to see if perhaps they will work with the VW.
I would still like to avoid the rim change since I move back-and-forth from Utah to Tahoe and I can’t be carrying mounted tires with me. I only ran dedicated snow tires on my previous WRX for two winters, in 2017 which was a big winter I ran all seasons all year and I was fine with that. Like I said, summer is sometimes only two months for me. I can’t see you running real snow tires for 10 months and then putting on the summer tires for only 2. Does this make sense?
It is sounding like my big rims and low profile tires will just not cut it in the snow at least what I am gleaning from others experiences so far.
Has anyone had any experience with Les Schwab? Will they match tire racks prices? Or at least deal?
Does anyone have any experience with Perelli or Proxes all season tires?
 
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DanoT

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Years ago when i bought a used Toyota MR2 it came with Toyo All Season Proxes. They had good tread but did not preform well and would often break loose in 1st gear from a standing start. I replaced them with Toyo Proxes Summer tires and it was a major upgrade in grip and performance. The point that I am making is that All Season tires don't preform in summer as well as Summer tires and don't preform in winter as well as Winter tires.

There is a new category of tire out now called All Weather. They may be better suited to the OP's needs but of course they are more expensive than any other category of tire.

Going from an AWD Subaru with 8" clearance to a 2WD sports sedan with a lot less clearance has got to lead to a drop off in winter performance, regardless of tires.
 

luliski

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Okay, thanks. I took another look at my spare 17 inch rims and I am thinking I need to investigate to see if perhaps they will work with the VW.
I would still like to avoid the rim change since I move back-and-forth from Utah to Tahoe and I can’t be carrying mounted tires with me. I only ran dedicated snow tires on my previous WRX for two winters, in 2017 which was a big winter I ran all seasons all year and I was fine with that. Like I said, summer is sometimes only two months for me. I can’t see you running real snow tires for 10 months and then putting on the summer tires for only 2. Does this make sense?
It is sounding like my big rims and low profile tires will just not cut it in the snow at least what I am gleaning from others experiences so far.
Has anyone had any experience with Les Schwab? Will they match tire racks prices? Or at least deal?
Does anyone have any experience with Perelli or Proxes all season tires?
I bought a set of tires at Les Schwab in SLT a few winters ago (pothole on Pioneer Trail blew out a tire). I don't know if they'll price match or deal, but the tires they recommended for my Impreza did not end up being very good for snow or ice. So know what you want when you walk in.
 
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4ster

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Thanks @DanoT. My last two Subaru WRX vehicles did not have great clearance. They were not ideal snow cars. Previous to those I had a number of Legacy wagon’s, they were pretty darn good snow cars. None of them had real snow tires only all seasons. Although things got tricky at times I never got stuck even driving barely open mountain passes for years and years and years. I am willing to compromise. I want to run all season or as you have mentioned the new all weather tires. I do not want Dedicated snow tires. They do not work for my situation. I wasted a lot of time and money on my last car having dedicated snow tires with seperate rims on my last vehicle. Yes the dedicated snow tires were bomber & when they were new my car was like a tank but I will accept the compromise. The Golf is AWD, clearance is about the same as the WRX.
My concern now that has been pointed out is the 19 inch wheels and low profile tires. :doh::huh:
 
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DanoT

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I do not want Dedicated snow tires. They do not work for my situation. I wasted a lot of time and money on my last car having dedicated snow tires with seperate rims on my last vehicle.

I don't like changing tires over 2x a year either, so I drive my '93 MR2 in summer, my '06 Volvo XC70 in winter and my '91 Dodge diesel 4X4 with truck camper for ski road trips.:)
 
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4ster

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I don't like changing tires over 2x a year either, so I drive my '93 MR2 in summer, my '06 Volvo XC70 in winter and my '91 Dodge diesel 4X4 with truck camper for ski road trips.:)
I think if I moved back to Tahoe full-time I would consider having a high clearance dedicated snow car just for those big powder days. It is just not in the cards right now. I have a hard enough time getting my bikes back-and-forth :bikewheelie:
 

Bill Talbot

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Very nice ride! One that gets a lot of discussion in our family, BTW.

I have a close fried who owns one, and lives in Burlington, VT. Serious car guy. I'll ask him about his winter set up.

Do you need the 19" wheels to clear the calipers and rotors, or can you get by with an 18" to even 17" wheel/rim?

I know you're a grown up, and. savvy one but I'm going to repeat what my 32year old son always reminds people. The only thing that keeps you on the road and touches the road are your tires, so you do want to get it right.

We have had all of our cars shod with Hakka's for the past 5 or so seasons. When I say "we" that's our extend family....kids, nieces, my brother and sister in law, us. Maybe 12 vehicles. Some that you would consider to be decent performance cars, but nothing quite like the R, in terms of size and performance. I'm just not up t speed on you options. I will ask my buddy, as he's a real resource.

I agree with SS. My brother and I have both had the problem. It's a pretty "funky" feel. I was able to sneak a smaller wheel over my brakes. My brother was not.....and takes the car off the road in the winter.

I've never once said while driving in a snowstorm...I wish I had less traction.
 

Bill Talbot

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Thanks for the reply but I don't really have many options? What do you mean by "grabbing the wheel" ? The rim?
I don't have much clearance either but I've always managed to get there in time for first chair on the biggest powder days ;) . I really just need the M+S stamp so I can get through California chain controls & I always carry a probe & shovel!

I thought you had to have the 'SNOWFLAKE' symbol to get through not a M&S designation. They are not the same thing. See below...

Winter / Snow Tire Tech: What is the Three-Peak Mountain Snowflake Symbol?

A three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol branded on a tire's sidewall indicates the tire meets required performance criteria in snow testing to be considered severe snow service-rated. Originally used as a designation for winter tires, the 3PMSF symbol is now featured on some all-season and all-terrain tires with snow performance that meets the testing criteria.

severe_snowflake.gif

  • Testing measures a tire's acceleration traction on medium-packed snow only. Braking and turning on snow, along with ice traction are not components of the test.

  • Tires branded with the 3PMSF symbol are expected to provide improved snow traction beyond a standard M+S branded all-season tire.


NOTE: 3PMSF-branded all-season and all-terrain tires cannot match the traction of dedicated winter / snow tires in all winter weather conditions and should not be considered a replacement for where and when a dedicated winter tire is needed.

In 1999, The U.S. Tire Manufacturers Association (USTMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance based standard to identify passenger and light truck tires that attain a traction index equal to, or greater than 110 (compared to a reference tire which is rated 100) during the specified American Society for Testing and Materials traction tests on packed snow. The standard helps ensure drivers can easily identify tires that provide a higher level of snow traction, and tires meeting that standard are branded with the three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol.

Note: A Highway Safety Code regulation passed September 17, 2008 for Quebec, Canada, stipulates that: "Between 15 December to 15 March, the owner of a taxi or passenger vehicle registered in Quebec may not put the vehicle into operation unless it is equipped with tires specifically designed for winter driving, in compliance with the standards prescribed by government regulation. The prohibition also applies to any person renting out passenger vehicles not equipped with that type of tires."

Starting December 15, 2014, the Highway Safety Code regulation specifies only tires bearing the three-peak mountain snowflake symbol will be considered acceptable winter/snow tires in Quebec.

"A three-peak mountain snowflake symbol branded on the tire's sidewall indicates the tire meets required performance criteria in snow testing to be considered severe snow service rated."

What's the difference in snow traction between M+S (Mud and Snow) branded tires from the past, modern all-season tires with M+S branding and a purpose-built winter/snow tire? While many drivers probably aren't absolutely sure, it can be the difference between getting to work, getting home or getting stuck.

The original definition of M+S (Mud and Snow) tires is based on the geometry of the tread design and requires no actual performance standard to achieve. The M+S designation was first used to differentiate the knobby, bias ply tires intended for use on muddy and/or snow-covered roads from the straight rib tires used on early cars or trucks. Tires with tread designs that meet the definition may be branded with the letters "M" and "S" in several different ways (e.g., M&S, M+S, M/S, MS, etc.) at the discretion of the tire manufacturer.

When early radial ply tires were also found to deliver more snow traction than the straight rib, bias ply tires, the tire companies introduced all-season tires. Supported by advertising, all-season tires have presented an unspoken promise that they, throughout their life, can provide traction for all seasons...through spring's rain, summer's heat, fall's cooling and winter's snow. While this combined offering has made all-season tires popular, many drivers have learned that a geometric definition doesn't guarantee winter snow and ice traction.
 
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4ster

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Note: A Highway Safety Code regulation passed September 17, 2008 for Quebec, Canada, stipulates that: "Between 15 December to 15 March, the owner of a taxi or passenger vehicle registered in Quebec may not put the vehicle into operation unless it is equipped with tires specifically designed for winter driving, in compliance with the standards prescribed by government regulation. The prohibition also applies to any person renting out passenger vehicles not equipped with that type of tires."
:snow: & I thought all the snowflakes were in California :snowball:

That may be the requirement in Quebec but I’m pretty sure all you need in the lower 48 is the M+S designation. I kind of wish more snowy mountain areas would have this type of requirement.
332530E4-1B7F-4B2F-BB9C-62C3F2A9A0D3.png
 

DanoT

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