crgildart

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Put it to you this way. Andrew Fastow at Enron got 6 years. He cost plenty of people retirement money and in some cases wiped out some employees retirement altogether.

Again, not saying this guy deserves a break but 4-12 years is stiff compared to corporate executive white collar crime.
And Bernie Madoff's probably going to die in prison. Here's the elephant in the room. Rich people stealing from poor people get nothing. Poor people stealing from rich people get much harsher sentences.

I think the just way to fix this is to give rich 1%r people the same sentences as poor 99%r people, not the other way around.
 
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fatbob

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Those that are still defending him and saying he shouldn't do time for an "honest mistake" in the Aspen press are hilarious. I'd love to be able to steal $6m from my employer and pocket $2m net. Would set me up for the rest of life in considerable comfort. So as long as I'm a "good guy" in all other aspects of my life that's fine, no consequences?

Punishments have never been just for the crime, they are to deter others as well. I wonder if those defending him would be happy if their SUV was jacked by a new ski bum in town (because he really needed it) or the bank teller decided to skim $50 per day from their account?
 

LiquidFeet

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Does a person's looks sometimes affect what sentence people think he deserves?
This excludes us of course.
Here's Derek Johnson.
1579701588266.jpeg
 

Nancy Hummel

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Aspen is a small town where everyone know everyone. He was a former city councilman, football coach, parent etc. While the judge may not have know Derek personally, the judge likely knew of Derek and had common friends. Vastly different from a larger city where defendants and judges would never have a chance to cross paths.

The pre sentencing report recommended 6 months of jail time plus a long probation period. The judge ignored that report.

There has to be a better way of punishing people for their behavior, making them pay resitution to the victims at the expense of the wrongdoer, not the taxpayer.
 

fatbob

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Yep extra 12 months for the button down collar and no parole for the lack of tie. At least he wasn't wearing a puffy vest like all the hedgies/corps these days.

...I know you are making a more serious point about race and privilege. A Mexican maid who'd stolen a few pieces of jewellry at the Jerome or a black kid from Aurora just meeting a bit of the local demand for Class As and can't see much defence going on....
 

LiquidFeet

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.......I know you are making a more serious point about race and privilege. A Mexican maid who'd stolen a few pieces of jewellry at the Jerome or a black kid from Aurora just meeting a bit of the local demand for Class As and can't see much defence going on....
Yes, I guess I was doing that. But there's more to it.

I read all the posts about this thing as it was being followed here on this forum, but I never ever looked online for actual news. So I didn't know what Derek looked like. When I did look online the other day and saw his photo, it came as a surprise. He didn't "look the part" given my unconscious assumptions. That unconscious and vague image in my head probably was of a white guy. However, it must not have involved a clean-cut middle-aged white guy in a suit looking very casual and business-like in a candid photo. Given the world I have worked in, he looks "normal."

So that started a line of thinking in my head about what individuals might think criminals look like, and how we deal with what they really look like when we see them. The fact that he was well known and supposedly respected in a not-big town has an effect of course, and that effect is probably more than what image strangers might be forming in their heads if they don't go searching for a picture somewhere.

Then there's the issue of what happens when the way the accused looks activates people's worst assumptions about groups of people with which they don't "normally" associate. I'm curious about this.
 
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coskigirl

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I guess I was doing that.

I read all the posts about this thing as it was being followed here on this forum, but I never ever looked online for actual news. So I didn't know what Derek looked like. When I did look online the other day and saw his photo, it came as a surprise. He didn't "look the part" given my unconscious assumptions. That unconscious, vague image in my head probably was of a white guy. However, it must not have involved a clean-cut middle-aged white guy in a suit looking very casual and business-like. Given the world I have worked in, he looks "normal."

So that started a line of thinking in my head about what we think criminals must look like, and how we deal with what they really look like. The fact that he was well known and supposedly respected in a not too bit town has an effect of course, and probably more than what strangers online might be forming in their heads if they don't go searching for a picture somewhere.

Then there's the issue of what happens when the way the accused looks activates people's worst assumptions about groups of people with which they don't "normally" associate.
Becoming more aware of the bias in the criminal justice system has been one of the biggest changes in my thinking that I've had since starting law school. I knew it was there but didn't really think much about how systemic it is in our society.
 

Wasatchman

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And Bernie Madoff's probably going to die in prison. Here's the elephant in the room. Rich people stealing from poor people get nothing. Poor people stealing from rich people get much harsher sentences.

I think the just way to fix this is to give rich 1%r people the same sentences as poor 99%r people, not the other way around.
Yeah, wish white collar crime sentencing was reasonably consistent but it sure isn't. A lot of the time corporate execs walk away scott free and with millions in their pocket for lot worse than this.

Not defending the guy at all. Just trying to point out that people tend to get super worked up about guys like this and yet hardly give it a thought or understand just how relatively light corp execs and some others get in comparison for much worse.

As I said, Andrew Fastow of Enron also got a 6 year sentence (served 5 years) in what I am sure is a country club setting compared to where this guy will serve.

But wow, this guy was making a nice salary from his employer and hard to figure doing that to an employer that bought his business and then kept him on as a high level employee. Obviously the whole thing sucks.
 

coskigirl

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Honestly, I can't remember what the public reaction was to Fastow's sentencing but since it happened in 2006, just as social media like Facebook was taking off, I'm not sure the same platforms to express those reactions were available. Ironically, Fastow was sentenced the exact day that FB was opened to the public without an invitation or specific membership requirement other than an email address and age. Perhaps if he were sentenced today the reaction would be more intense. Or perhaps the sentence would be different knowing the public reaction possibility. It's hard to say.

Basing sentencing on a crime now on what was done 14 years ago isn't necessarily reasonable. If we never learn from our mistakes and act on those lessons, how do we make changes?
 

Wasatchman

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Honestly, I can't remember what the public reaction was to Fastow's sentencing but since it happened in 2006, just as social media like Facebook was taking off, I'm not sure the same platforms to express those reactions were available. Ironically, Fastow was sentenced the exact day that FB was opened to the public without an invitation or specific membership requirement other than an email address and age. Perhaps if he were sentenced today the reaction would be more intense. Or perhaps the sentence would be different knowing the public reaction possibility. It's hard to say.

Basing sentencing on a crime now on what was done 14 years ago isn't necessarily reasonable. If we never learn from our mistakes and act on those lessons, how do we make changes?
I use the Fastow example because Enron is/was a poster child for corporate fraud. One of the largest frauds in history and took down an en entire accounting firm (Arthur Andersen) with it. Financially destroyed a ridiculous number of lives. Fastow was CFO and a key player in it. And he got the same 6-year sentence. I think it's hard to defend that. It wasn't that long ago, we're not talking during the gilded age.

I could use numerous recent examples but I won't as I'm not sure it would matter in making my point any clearer and this is a ski forum.
 

cantunamunch

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Becoming more aware of the bias in the criminal justice system has been one of the biggest changes in my thinking that I've had since starting law school. I knew it was there but didn't really think much about how systemic it is in our society.
Especially since the lawyer will be in charge of making sure the client is image-optimised for the specific venue.

To @fatbob's point, I am certain sure that if Johnson's attorney had seen a point collar and tie (let alone a wing collar :geek: ) they would have made him take it off immediately and try not to act superior, for the duration of the proceedings at least.

In fewer words and directly to @LiquidFeet , it is part of the defense attorney's job to make sure LF and others have just exactly that 'doesn't look the part' reaction.
 

ScotsSkier

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Those that are still defending him and saying he shouldn't do time for an "honest mistake" in the Aspen press are hilarious. I'd love to be able to steal $6m from my employer and pocket $2m net. Would set me up for the rest of life in considerable comfort. So as long as I'm a "good guy" in all other aspects of my life that's fine, no consequences?

Punishments have never been just for the crime, they are to deter others as well. I wonder if those defending him would be happy if their SUV was jacked by a new ski bum in town (because he really needed it) or the bank teller decided to skim $50 per day from their account?
His "mistake" was doing it on a small scale. If he had thought a bit more about making serious money through corrupt practices with minimum chance of being held to justice he would have become a US senator or congressman..... Ever wonder why these people spend $5m+ on a campaign for a job that pays $180k/year???:huh:
 
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James

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Lol^ Small potatoes.

Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, Refco, AIG, Madoff, Lehman Bros, and on.
 

fatbob

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Well if you only set the threshold for crimes involving property and finances at 10s of millions so the authorities can focus their time and efforts on the real bad guys does society end up better or worse off? Notwithstanding the not insignificant problem of individuals within the "authorities" themselves who are free to take bribes up to the threshold.....

Yes it is too easy to get away scot free with stuff at a corporate level that has an adverse impact on millions or is ruinous to thousands. And yes US and indeed most global politics is often a matter of money buying undue influence and pork barrel interests being served. But that isn't going to get better soon..
 

Wasatchman

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Certainly not advocating a threshold of tens of millions for crimes of property and finance.

What I am advocating is more consistent sentencing with white collar crimes and sentences commensurate with the severity of the crime.

I see in general a leniency related to corporate crime and corporate officers.

A crazy world we live in where ski thief guy gets 6 year sentence and more egregious corporate crime gets nothing to not much worse in many cases.

I'm shocked at the general public's general complacency on this issue. I don't know if people just don't care or are unaware of it.

In any event, I've said my peace and I recognize this is a ski forum rather than criminal justice so I'll shut about it now.
 
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DanoT

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His "mistake" was doing it on a small scale.
I was thinking that his mistake was not keeping Aspen Ski Corp as a partner in selling used demos on ebay, and then make extra $$ by selling for a bit higher price, and keeping 2 sets of books so Aspen gets $ but just less than they are entitled to.
 

Ogg

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Certainly not advocating a threshold of tens of millions for crimes of property and finance.

What I am advocating is more consistent sentencing with white collar crimes and sentences commensurate with the severity of the crime.

I see in general a leniency related to corporate crime and corporate officers.

A crazy world we live in where ski thief guy gets 6 year sentence and more egregious corporate crime gets nothing to not much worse in many cases.

I'm shocked at the general public's general complacency on this issue. I don't know if people just don't care or are unaware of it.

In any event, I've said my peace and I recognize this is a ski forum rather than criminal justice so I'll shut about it now.
It largely has to do with how good their lawyers are and who they know. The more money you have the longer you can tie things up in court until you get a better deal.
 

pete

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