Your bike is most likely slower than Ideal.

[skibob]

*confused* I mean, they turn ...

Yes, but it is a very different feel. My bike has a 70 degree head tube angle. Typical dedicated downhill bikes can be as slack as 63 degrees. That is a huge difference. The slacker you go, the more vague the steering is, the steeper you go the more precise. Just think about the feeling of steering input on a road bike vs whatever you ride on the mountain. You might think the difference is because of dirt and pavement, but a huge percentage of it is because of head tube angle My mtb is not nearly as steep as a road bike, but cmparatively . . .

A slack angle wants to push when turned. A steep angle wants to turn when turned. Comparatively. Slack bikes have to be banked and countersteered at speed, as Josh's photos show well. Any bike can be ridden that way (track bikes have the steepest head tubes, but yet are ridden on the steepest banks). HTA isn't about that. Its about stability. The farther away from each other the axles get, the stabler the ride. But, as Breeze points out in the interview, wheel axle height (relative to bottom bracket) matters a great deal too. His philosophy is, for a downhiller, not to give up any more precision and agility than is necessary. I personally think its a lot like wide skis. If a little was an improvement, then more and more must be better. Or not. Breeze could be considered a dinosaur, or simply an expert. He built the first mountain bike.

EDIT: Also because of suspension travel. The more the forks compress, the steeper the HTA gets.

 

[Monique]

The slacker you go, the more vague the steering is, the steeper you go the more precise. Just think about the feeling of steering input on a road bike vs whatever you ride on the mountain.

I personally think its a lot like wide skis. If a little was an improvement, then more and more must be better. Or not.

Perhaps little surprise that I just think of my road bike as "twitchy" - and based on your second comment, I'm sure my ski preference is a bit wider than yours Different strokes.

You're right that my DH bike is not super precise - but I'm also not competing or particularly trying to go fast. Arguably my biggest struggle is to go fast enough to clear anything.

 

[Josh Matta]

well vague is not exactly the word I would use to describe either of my MTB bikes but you are correct on understeer. At 66 degree(or 65 when the Trance is 160mm front travel mode) they absolutely do push if ridden with lots of steering effort.....but IMO I can go around turns tons faster than either of my old bikes which had 70 degree HTA and a 72 HTA with more XC style geo. The thing is they hold a line so much better and I can confidently basically ride between the seat/handlebars with my COM all the time even on steeper DHs, which we have a ton of here, and what my backyard trail system is becoming.

I think what most people forget about is trail feedback. Slacker head angles and/or really short stems give you a ton less trail feedback than steeper HTA and/ or longer stems. IE the leverage acting on the handlebars from outside input is much reduced in set up like mine. The bike is far more stable in actual technical trails at speed. They basically ride like Mini DH bike even the Hardtail......

IF breezer was correct someone would be running geo like his on the DH or enduro circuits and winning it goes beyond sponsorship as there are tons of rider unsponsored doing well at these racers. The trend though looks more like my bikes then Breezer. Even XC bikes are slacker than 70 degree head angles these days. Some World Cup level XC guys are running 68-69 degree HTA angle these days because stability, lets them in the end be quicker around turns and more importantly all around.

Heck the entire top 5 today's in XC race was running droppers as well. No point in a fixxed post from a performance stand point anymore.

 

[skibob]

IE the leverage acting on the handlebars from outside input is much reduced in set up like mine. The bike is far more stable in actual technical trails at speed. They basically ride like Mini DH bike even the Hardtail......

IF breezer was correct someone would be running geo like his on the DH or enduro circuits and winning it goes beyond sponsorship as there are tons of rider unsponsored doing well at these racers. The trend though looks more like my bikes then Breezer.
.

Trail feedback is a debate like dampened skis. I like to feel the trail, even when its not nice (ironically, I like a dampened ski, go figure).

Technical Note: Joe Breeze (no "r") is the guy, Breezer is his bike. As for trends, well, yes, just like wide skis a few years ago, the trend is toward slacker geometry. But I think it will bounce back to a more moderate compromise, just like the renewed interest in narrower skis.

BTW, the "enduro" Breeze is talking about was 40 years ago and was just a product of deciding to take the same bikes and race them up the hill as well as down. He doesn't make an "enduro" or "downhill" bike. He makes the Supercell (XC) and Repack (All Mountain). His geometry is conservative, and consciously so. But the difference between his bikes and other manufacturers is just a couple of degrees. He makes bikes for recreational riders, not racers. Nobody would race one of his bikes in other than the most amateur of races. Too heavy, and no factory support.

Just as there is nothing wrong with wide skis, there is nothing wrong with slacker geometry. But both are trends that, after flirting with extremes, are (or will) moderate at some point. Fat skis are still made. But more effort is going into making skinnier skis better too. At the end of the day, we ride what we like. His bikes are popular with the people who buy them. I don't think slack geometry will disappear. It will just become less ubiquitous. But its much earlier on the curve. Call it 2009 in fat ski terms.

 

[Mike Thomas]

The slacker you go, the more vague the steering is, the steeper you go the more precise.

A bike with a 67* head tube isn't "less precise" than a bike with a 70* HT. It reacts to steering input slower... that is not less precise. The bike will go exactly where you ask it to, there is no lack of precision. A slalom ski turns quicker than a GS ski, it isn't more precise. Be careful with words, most of them mean things.

 

[Tricia]

I am ready to ride the slow line slow..Tricia and I are sharing her Klein single speed. We love the light weight and tossability but the (very) rigid Gradient tubing is wrecking havoc on my back end. Has anyone run a suspension seat post? There are some inexpensive ones on Ebay, any suggestions? we need a 31.6.
View attachment 9765

FWIW, that saddle is the Damsefly by Terry which is a woman specific and it fits me well. But if Phil and I are going to share the ride, thenI guess we need a saddle that fits both of us.

 

[Tricia]

@skibob When I took the downhill 101 course, they took us through a section of leaning (or rolling to the side of the tire tread) to make a turn. It has helped me a lot on making turns without slowing down.
This is a series of photos during the learning curve.

 

[Tricia]

As for saddle height.
This is a bike that was fitted for me for the DH 101 course. I realize that there is a difference between down hill and climbing and cross country, but this was a very unnatural height for me until I got into riding. I quickly realized why the saddle height was set at that level.

 

[crgildart]

Here's a set up that looks a more like what would be comfortable to me.. facebook link, couldn't find YouTube version..

 

[Tricia]

@crgildart I think set up is relative to the type of riding you're doing. Quite often, when you change the type of riding you do, it takes a bit to adjust to the new fit, but there is a reason that the set up is ideal for that type of riding.

 

[Superbman]

Old-school 'steering' vs. new school angling……..uh-oh, this is starting to sound a lot like the ski technique debate that's been raging in forum land for the last decade.

FWIW, You still need to steer, and you always needed to tilt your bike as well. New geometry trades up on the need for the former for the latter…but depending on trail, speed, and intention, you still need a blend of both (oh, man, this really does sound like a ski technique debate).

 

[Tricia]

Old-school 'steering' vs. new school angling……..uh-oh, this is starting to sound a lot like the ski technique debate that's been raging in forum land for the last decade.

FWIW, You still need to steer, and you always needed to tilt your bike as well. New geometry trades up on the need for the former for the latter…but depending on trail, speed, and intention, you still need a blend of both (oh, man, this really does sound like a ski technique debate).

I think the point is that, many people have been steering alone without tilting. Like you said, a mix of the two is a must.
The interesting point is when you learn to do both and meld it into using the terrain.

 

[scott43]

Old-school 'steering' vs. new school angling……..uh-oh, this is starting to sound a lot like the ski technique debate that's been raging in forum land for the last decade.

FWIW, You still need to steer, and you always needed to tilt your bike as well. New geometry trades up on the need for the former for the latter…but depending on trail, speed, and intention, you still need a blend of both (oh, man, this really does sound like a ski technique debate).

Caution: proselytizing ahead!

 

[scott43]

I think the point is that, many people have been steering alone without tilting. Like you said, a mix of the two is a must.
The interesting point is when you learn to do both and meld it into using the terrain.

I really try to avoid these types of discussions because there are so many variables. Fact is, you can't steer without tilting. But you are right, there is a mix of positions and steering angles and how you use those based on terrain and available traction is the important thing. I think the exercises you did try to get people out of their comfort zone of straight-up riding. Stuff that many people take for granted, like in skiing, has to be taught to some people who have never gone into such positions to ride. I would encourage everyone to learn how to manipulate the bike beneath them to achieve certain goals. The ability to lift the front wheel first, then pick up the back to hop over an object is foreign to many riders. As is leaning the bike, either by pushing down or pulling down.

 

[crgildart]

@crgildart I think set up is relative to the type of riding you're doing. Quite often, when you change the type of riding you do, it takes a bit to adjust to the new fit, but there is a reason that the set up is ideal for that type of riding.

That is the posture that I grew up riding and what's most comfortable for me in all off road endeavors, especially ones involving air.

 

[Mike Thomas]

That is the posture that I grew up riding and what's most comfortable for me in all off road endeavors, especially ones involving air.

So... you are most comfortable being Danny MacAskil? Cool. I wish I could be Danny also.

(Funny thing is, when Danny goes for a trail ride, he rides a bike like a Santa Cruz Bronson. Not a trials bike.)

Do you ride a mountain bike or are you speculating about what you assume you might prefer if you did?

 

[crgildart]

So... you are most comfortable being Danny MacAskil? Cool. I wish I could be Danny also.

(Funny thing is, when Danny goes for a trail ride, he rides a bike like a Santa Cruz Bronson. Not a trials bike.)

Do you ride a mountain bike or are you speculating about what you assume you might prefer if you did?

I ride an 80s Mongoose for street and paths through the woods. Up until I got married I rode a 26" custom BMX crusier for downhill and BMX tracks. I rode a lot from the mid 70s through the mid 90s. Not much since though. I'm in my mid 50s with back issues. I wouldn't do well on anything rough without being in an upright position.

When did you start riding? My best guess is you didn't start until after I mostly retired. FWIW, I'm also not in to skis over 90mm underfoot so go ahead and add that to my "get off my lawn" image hahahaha! My widest skis are 99mm underfoot and only skied them once in the past four years. Spend most of my time on skis in the 60s-80s and only one pair under 179cm (SL skis).

Total laggard here..

 

[skibob]

A bike with a 67* head tube isn't "less precise" than a bike with a 70* HT. It reacts to steering input slower... that is not less precise. The bike will go exactly where you ask it to, there is no lack of precision. A slalom ski turns quicker than a GS ski, it isn't more precise. Be careful with words, most of them mean things.

First off, 67 and 70 aren't THAT far apart. You are right about reacting to steering input more slowly (all other things being equal). However, once you start adding lateral forces, the slacker geometry will, as Josh acknowledged, understeer, relative to the steeper HTA. Words do mean things, believe it or not I agree with that. When describing new things, especially technical things, sometimes we have to work together to find suitable terminology. I chose the word "precise". If you would like to propose an alternative opposite for understeer, I'm all ears. "Steer" might be the obvious counter to "understeer" but that seemed confusing.

In any event, its all relative, because any geometry can be pushed into understeer, and the tires and surface matter a lot here too. But no bike "will go exactly where you ask it to" on steering input alone, not beyond very low speeds on very stable surfaces.

I get the feeling you might feel I'm maligning your bike, but I'm not. If you got on mine, you might find it a little twitchy. I might find yours a little vague. We'd both adjust relatively quickly and at the end of the day we'd both have a preference.

 

[skibob]

I think the point is that, many people have been steering alone without tilting. Like you said, a mix of the two is a must.
The interesting point is when you learn to do both and meld it into using the terrain.

Although I do think its very hard to actually do one w/o the other, or even countersteering in a nice high speed drift.

 

[Mike Thomas]

CR, I got a Big Wheel in 1974 and have not stopped pedaling bikes since then.

Skibob, I agree with much of what you have said, but choosing words like 'precise' vs 'vague' when words like 'quick' vs 'stable' are less biased and, frankly, more helpful to folks trying to wrap their heads around one of Josh's threads.