Why do I Hate the Soul Rider?

[SallyCat]

I picked up a discounted pair of Nordica Soul Riders last summer and put some nice bindings on them and couldn't wait to try them this spring when the snow softened. They seemed like they'd be playful and just the right width for spring skiing. I didn't really pay attention to them being twin-tips, because I thought they were an "all-mountain" ski.

Well, we've been having spring conditions here lately and I took the SRs out last week to play in the mashed potatoes. And hated them. (And I LOVE soft, mushy snow; I have a cheap old pair of Black Pearls that are an absolute blast in those conditions). But the Soul Riders....blerg. I could never get myself to feel forward/centered on the skis--I always felt unbalanced toward the back (and I'm not a great skier, but I'm not that bad either. I knew I was back, I just couldn't do anything about it, or felt like I couldn't.) The tails kept getting hung up in the slush no matter what kind of turns I made: tight, wide, on edge, flat, and everything in between. I finally ditched them for the BPs and had a great rest of the day.

The shop that mounted them actually put me a little bit (not sure how much) forward of the standard all-mountain mounting point. I've skied on center-mounted twin-tips and had a great time (albeit not in soft snow). I am 5'8" and a "non-petite" weight, and the skis are 177.

Now, I am perfectly aware that a good skier will enjoy these skis just fine and that my problem was and is entirely operator error. What I'm trying to figure out is why I disliked them so much. What was I doing or not doing? Is it the size or style that didn't work for me, that revealed some or many deficits in my technique?

I'm just trying to learn about different ski types and why I like what I like. I'm also strenuously avoiding grading papers, so this is pure procrastination. I would be very interested in feedback, though.

Always learning.
SallyCat

 

[SallyCat]

Also, FUN FACT, there are a pair of Soul Riders for sale in the Ski Swap forum. Barely used in some really soft snow.

 

[sinbad7]

Quick question: did you mount the Soul Riders with bindings you've used (and enjoyed) on other skis? Just dived over to the Garage Sale board and I see they have Attack 13s on them (nice binding by the way). Here I'm trying to work out if you changed the ramp angle (differential between toe and heel height) materially with the new setup. I can't imagine any radical change would result from mounting Attack 13s though.

I see you adjusted for a smaller boot (from 316mm to 305mm). Is that where the 'slightly forward' comes from, or were they mounted slightly forward before being adjusted for the smaller boot? That BSL adjustment would have moved you 5.5mm forward from the original mount point, which isn't a big deal - certainly not enough to have you hate a ski.

What length are your Black Pearls?

 

[SallyCat]

Hey Sinbad, thanks for your reply!

The Black Pearls are 166, which I would think would be a little short for me but they seem fine; maybe feel a little short when I'm charging a bit. I've never tried them longer. It may well be that 177 is too long for what I want to do, which is pivot around in heavy snow, playing in the soft bumps, and making big-radius turns.

Ramp angle is a great question. I once had heel lifts in my boots and I had the same feeling of being forced into the back seat. But as you say, I don't think the Attacks would be that significant an angle? I'll try to look that up. My other skis (BP and Kendos) have Marker Griffons on them. Hmmm.

And yes, the bindings were mounted a bit forward and then adjusted for the shorter BSL.

It's an interesting puzzle. I usually love most skis I end up trying, which is how I ended up in this gear-crazy predicament in the first place (Context: I stopped skiing in 1986 and just started up again last year, so I was a bit smitten with sidecut and rocker and waist width...and...well, everything about modern skis and all of their variety.)

 

[cantunamunch]

Got a tape measure?


It should be pretty easy to find the center of sidecut on the skis. When you're clicked in, how far forward are you of that =?

 

[Josh Matta]

yeah if you ski a 166cm Black Pearl a 177cm Soul rider is Probably WAY to big.

but I am 5'8 and have skied the soul rider at weights between 170 and 200lb in a 177cm and I have tried the 185cm which I felt was WAY to long for me in tight bumps and trees and I have no issues skiing 'chargey" skis like Bonafides and El capos on tight woods in a mid to high 180s length. The issue with the 185cm Soul Rider is that is has ton of contact length and its not real stiff, so it make any smearing very jarring compared to a dual metal laminate skis the new enforcers, bonafide or El capo.

First if you have Griffons on everything else and attacks on your soul riders the attacks are heel high, I shim every attack I have to raise the toes ups. Its enough of a difference most people would notice.

seond the Sould rider skis best IMO from the Classic Mount point.

third the factory tune is most likely railed and potentially has sharpness down the contact points.

The Soul Rider is very shapely, very torsionally rigid, very soft a long its length skis. it also has no metal. Out of all my skis I have it is probably the ski that most likes tipping movements and most hates sliding or skidding. IE skis a round line on edge and the soul rider shine, try to ski a fast line, and scrub speed and its hard to balance on. If we had video or you skiing it would be obvious why the you do not like the soul Rider.

 

[SallyCat]

This is fascinating; thanks so much!

The factory tune IS a bit railed (I checked it with a true bar when I bought them), but my shop said it wasn't a big deal and pushed me to just ski them without a grind.

I'll do some measuring when I get a chance this week. The shop insisted that women need to mount slightly forward to compensate for our "different center of gravity". I haven't found that to be the case but it sort of came to the point where I was going to have to be a little aggressive to insist on the normal mount point, and i just let them do what they wanted. Lesson learned there.

I'm also curious about the twin tip: what would be the advantage of a full or partial twin tip vs. a flat tail in an all-mountain ski? Disadvantage? Just curious.

Again, thanks so much for taking the time to respond; I love learning about different skis' characteristics, and this has given me a lot to think about and play around with.

 

[Josh Matta]

Honestly most skis with twins tip have soft tails....the soul rider not so much. The soul rider actually skis more traditional than say the new Enforcers.

Also COG of women IMO probably doesnt matter. Assuming your boots are aligned properly and binding ramp is correct there is no reason to be more forward on this ski. In fact I would go so far to say that when trying to bust though broken and uneven snow being able to just drive the tips is tons easier than trying to work to stay center.

With that said the Soul Rider is not awesome at broken snow. especially when not on edge. Even on edge the lack of metal for me means that I pretty much like my Soul Riders on Smooth groomers ., off piste pack powder(on scratchy off piste its kinda of scary), light amount of powder, and I pretty much take it out if I want a fun skis that can make REALLY short arc to arc turns and have some fun on natural terrain features and take some mellow park laps. out of my entire quiver it skis the shortest arc to arc turn on packed powder.

 

[markojp]

Odd... I've sold a bunch of Soul Riders over the years since their intro. I have my own pair mounted with telemark bindings and have always thought they're a fun ski and pretty versatile. I did remount once moving the binding aft a bit, but mounting a teley bonding on a twin is a bit complex IMHO and experience. I've participated in both alpine and telemark clinics on them and have found no notable difficulty doing a variety of maneuvers. It's one of two twin tipped skis I've used with telemark bindings that I've actually liked... usually there's just not enough feeling of 'tail' or torsional rigidity in most twins making modulating fore/aft pressure through the arc of a teley turn feel a bit like dancing on grease. I'd attribute the relatively stronger feeling of tipping and finishing of the SR to what Josh mentions (torsional rigidity). That said, I'm sure I'd like the old Nordica Hell and Back (non-twin' similar construction) even better!


So how have I sold it? It's a great directional ski that happens to have a twin tip, and for this reason its a ski we often sell to U16-18 racers for a free/powder/fun ski, but not as a 'charger'. These kids still haven't filled out yet, so it works well for them and their tipping skill sets. It's not a ski I generally recommend to a heavier intermediate or expert skier. The intermediate doesn't usually ski tip to tail and there are better 'tail pusher special' skis out there. For the heavier expert, it's just not something that feels stable enough skiing fast in local off piste conditions. So where else to they shine? For parents chasing or leading kids over the river and through the woods across the mountain who still want some performance from a ski when ducking out for a couple of free swim laps. One particular customer (lighter level 8'ish skier) in the latter description is on his 3rd pair.

I don't think I've ever seen one returned to the shop for 'unsatisfactory performance' which makes me wonder a bit about the mount point (I don't agree with mounting them forward for gender reasons with a 306 BSL at all) but more particularly the tune. Railed skis are awful, period. I agree with Josh that a video would answer a bunch of questions, and that yes, they may be just too long for the OP. FWIW, I'm 5'11", 200lbs and ski the 185. At my size and weight, it's not my personal choice for an alpine mounted ski (would make a nice beginner through intermediate/advanced teaching ski though) and for high performance teley, I still prefer a directional ski with a stiff'ish tail and relatively softer tip... anyhow....

 

[Monique]

it sort of came to the point where I was going to have to be a little aggressive to insist on the normal mount point

Ugh. Definitely a sign to go somewhere else.

 

[markojp]

FWiW, I've them and recommended them mounted 1 cm ahead of classic. Case study, tall drink of water 14-16 y.o. with a growing foot, classic +1. Season two, Jr. Needs a new larger boot, they've gained weight... slide heel piece back, and boot center is now on classic mark. Perfect.

 

[SBrown]

I wasn't a huge fan of this ski until I moved the mount point back. It was a demo, I think it was pretty close to a center mount rather than a classic. However, if they really are railed, that needs to be addressed first.

 

[Gerry Rhoades]

Every time I went to an industry demo, if Nordica didn't have what I wanted, I'd hop on a pair of Soul Riders and go have a blast. After doing that for two years, I finally bought a pair to replace my Steadfasts. I mounted AAttack 13 bindings on them at the classic mount point. I'm 5'7", 150 pounds and really enjoy them. But, coming from a 166cm ski to a 177cm ski would probably feel very different. But, you might want to try shimming the toe as Josh suggested. And get a tune. And find a new shop. Actually, I'd take the skis back and tell them to remount them the way you want them mounted.

 

[Tricia]

@Stephen has the Soul Riders as his "go to" ski.

 

[nay]

However, if they really are railed, that needs to be addressed first.

IME, a ski like the Soul Rider that has a decent amount of tip and tail early rise, tail in particular (the twin tip aspect is irrelevant), is going to be a nightmare with the wrong tune, much less railed. It takes what should an easy to release design and causes it to go wonky and catchy, and I think this is exacerbated by the inward early rise contact points as the ski is being "grabbed" at an early contact point while you are also trying to ski tip to tail. This of course leads to defensive skiing because you can't trust the tail release, and you feel "forced into the backseat". Keep in mind that more center mounted skis don't so much have a traditional backseat as their freeride heritage suggests that much happens at the tail end of the ski without them running away from you.

I got a terrible tune on a set of Rocker2 92's a few years back, which is a very similar ski, and I couldn't even ski flats. Just kept catching edges. My wife got a similar tune on a set of Rockette 90's, which has much more of an "all mountain" tail, and same issue. Detuned both sets and everything back to normal.

So...if your Soul Riders are railed and perhaps the factory tune is generally off, then I think you should feel confident that you could ski them at all. Fixing the tune would be a lot less expensive than replacing the skis, although that's not to say you'll like them even properly tuned.

To your other question, the "advantage" of a twin tip is for skiing switch, although for all mountain use it increases the bias to soft snow. Keep in mind, though, that "twin tip" is used way to broadly. It can be everything from a completely symmetrical ski that would have it's design purpose for the park to a ski that has a powder tip design and more upturned tail. In the latter, those tip and tails are hardly "twins" - simply both are biased to soft snow and you can get some tradeoff between "big mountain" use and smeary playing around the mountain use.

I would focus more on mount position than the shape of the last bit of the tail. The more you move forward, the more, all things being equal, you are skiing a playful freeride ski. The more you stay traditional, the more you are skiing an "all mountain" ski. Comparing the Soul Rider to the Black Pearl would be a good enough distinction. Lay those two side by side with the mounts lined up and look at where the ski length is. There are skis that defy some of these classifications, and the Soul Rider has been reviewed as one of them, but a lot of tail where you aren't used to it that behaves differently than you are used to is worth figuring out in terms of preference if you want to get your tune fixed.

 

[Monique]

Keep in mind that more center mounted skis don't so much have a traditional backseat as their freeride heritage suggests that much happens at the tail end of the ski without them running away from you.

I can't parse this sentence.

 

[SallyCat]

Ugh. Definitely a sign to go somewhere else.

Yeah, that is the second time that's happened. The first was a different bootfitter who all but refused to add cork to my ZipFIts because he insisted (without even looking at my boots or asking me anything about them or the liners) that they couldn't possibly have extra space around the ankle. I ended up ordering cork tubes and doing it myself. Boots fit great now.

Fixing the tune would be a lot less expensive than replacing the skis, although that's not to say you'll like them even properly tuned.

Good point. I guess it would be worth a try, and at the least I would come away with a better understanding of how all of the elements mentioned in this thread affect performance and feel. My Kendos are 170 and I love them, so I thought 177 in the SR would be appropriate; it would be interesting to fix the tune, mount position, and ramp angle and then see how the length feels.

 

[Brian Finch]

Fwiw.... I could never figure out the Patron & everyone loved em.

 

[SallyCat]

I can't parse this sentence.

LOL, I took it to mean that center-mounted skis don't have as much of a "back seat" as traditional skis, because the front and rear of the ski are the same size and shape. So the consequences of getting "back" a bit in one's stance are fewer and milder on center-mounts.

 

[Monique]

they couldn't possibly have extra space around the ankle.

LOL. That's quite the statement.

I personally like my ankles to be vacuum-packed. Get very particular about this.